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Old 15-01-2020, 02:02   #31
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Re: Monitor for navigation

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Pinguino View Post
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck its a duck

アヒル does not look like a duck to me... Japanese is not a pictographic language
Correct. It's a phonetic language. Each of the marks have a phonetic sound, i.e., it is a way of transcribing spoken sounds. It may look like pictures to someone who can't read the language, but it's not pictograms. The phonetics are only grouped together in a different way than in western languages using linear scripts, like English.

Modern Japanese has 46 basic characters, or 71 including diacritics.
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Old 15-01-2020, 02:09   #32
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Re: Monitor for navigation

Getting back to the subject -- another variant the OP might look at is one of the portable displays which run off USB. Asus make some good ones, for example. These will be smaller -- I think the biggest is 17" and Full HD -- and don't have VESA mounts, but I'm pretty sure you can find a RamMount or similar bracket which will do very nicely. Simplest of wiring -- one USB cable.
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Old 15-01-2020, 02:14   #33
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Re: Monitor for navigation

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Originally Posted by Cpt Pat View Post
Correct. It's a phonetic language. Each of the marks have a phonetic sound, i.e., it is a way of transcribing spoken sounds. It may look like pictures to someone who can't read the language, but it's not pictograms. The phonetics are only grouped together in a different way than in western languages, like English.

Sorry, this is incorrect. The Japanese have three writing systems, and the by far most generally used is Kanji, which does not have any phonetic characters. There are several thousand Kanji characters in general use. Kanji is based on the Chinese writing system and stand for entire ideas or words.
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We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
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Old 15-01-2020, 02:25   #34
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Re: Monitor for navigation

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Pinguino View Post
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck its a duck

アヒル does not look like a duck to me... Japanese is not a pictographic language

That is "duck" in the Katakama writing system, which is rarely used in Japan except by foreigners and children.


If you read something about ducks in any Japanese newspaper or book, you would see "duck" represented thus: 鴨


A single character which represents "duck"; that is Kanji. It's a weird idea of a picture maybe, but the characters became highly styled over the millenia. Nothing phonetic about it whatsoever.
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Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
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Old 15-01-2020, 02:25   #35
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Re: Monitor for navigation

Still doesn't look like a duck....
鴨 (wild duck) — Kanji dictionary — Red Finch Japanese Page
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Old 15-01-2020, 02:26   #36
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Re: Monitor for navigation

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Sorry, this is incorrect. The Japanese have three writing systems, and the by far most generally used is Kanji, which does not have any phonetic characters. There are several thousand Kanji characters in general use. Kanji is based on the Chinese writing system and stand for entire ideas or words.
Kanji is comprised of logograms. In a written language, a logogram or logograph is a written character that represents a word or phrase. It's still not pictographic, it's logographic, and certainly not used to express underlying emotions, intent, or context - the intended purposse of "emoticons" (emotional icons).

The meanings for Kanji constructions are clearly defined. Emoticons are not. So emoticons do not overcome the interpretative handicap that exists in the lack of tone in text. They don't serve their intended purpose. In fact, they often make the misinterpretations worse. If you're being sarcastic, for example, simply say so instead of depending on the reader to interpret a silly picture. That method has worked fine for a thousand years or so.
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Old 15-01-2020, 02:35   #37
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Re: Monitor for navigation

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Originally Posted by Cpt Pat View Post
Kanji is comprised of logograms. In a written language, a logogram or logograph is a written character that represents a word or phrase. It's still not pictographic. It's logographic.

Logograms and pictograms are not mutually exclusive. A pictogram is one type of logogram. All of the most basic and common Chinese and Kanji characters are pictographic, including "duck" posted above. Examples: water, mountain, woman, child, rain, wood, mother, eye, person, rain, dragon, etc. etc. etc.


I see you at last turned to the Wikipedia article on this, but you need to read it to the end.



And in any case what you said was "Japanese is a phonetic language". This is false. 99% of everything printed in Japanese is printed in Kanji, an absolutely non-phonetic writing system.


A completely different question is whether an "emoticon" is a pictogram or not. I don't know the answer to this question and I'm not sure whether there is any consensus about it. But in any case, you can't blame misunderstanding through emoticons on "pictographs". The Chinese have been using pictograms for thousands of years, and wrote some of the best poetry in the world with it. Emoticons are no more likely to be misunderstood than words are. To express yourself well and understand others well, requires some effort sometimes. Don't blame the medium.
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I believe you refuse to go back without feeling of me;
We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
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Old 15-01-2020, 02:57   #38
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Re: Monitor for navigation

Well stated, Dockhead.

Since I'm not writing an academic paper here, I plagiarize wherever I can...

I can't argue with your point that expressing one's self requires effort. I'm bothered by the use of emoticons as a crutch. What really disturbs me is a trend I see toward the breakdown in civil discourse. The Internet isn't fostering better understanding - it's driving us apart by creating insular echo chambers. It is causing us to lose our interpersonal skills when face-to-face, and our abilities to express ideas - of which the use of emoticons seems symptomatic. I was one of the early adopters, posting on USENET before real commercialization of the Internet, and I have seen a steady decline in civility. Deep down, I'm profoundly disappointed. It's one thing to disagree, it's entirely another to go for the throat of another. I don't feel emoticons are helping.
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Old 15-01-2020, 03:11   #39
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Re: Monitor for navigation

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Originally Posted by Cpt Pat View Post
Well stated, Dockhead.

Since I'm not writing an academic paper here, I plagiarize wherever I can...

I can't argue with your point that expressing one's self requires effort. I'm bothered by the use of emoticons as a crutch. What really disturbs me is a trend I see toward the breakdown in civil discourse. The Internet isn't fostering better understanding - it's driving us apart by creating insular echo chambers. It is causing us to lose our interpersonal skills when face-to-face, and our abilities to express ideas - of which the use of emoticons seems symptomatic. I was one of the early adopters, posting on USENET before real commercialization of the Internet, and I have seen a steady decline in civility. Deep down, I'm profoundly disappointed. It's one thing to disagree, it's entirely another to go for the throat of another. I don't feel emoticons are helping.

Well, that's an entirely different conversation. Here I completely agree with you.


Some people think that Internet discussion is so poisonous because people are anonymous and can say whatever evil impulse pushes them to say, without fear of reprisal, not even a harsh glance.



But our whole society is going that way -- look at the total breakdown of civilized political discourse.



God knows where it all ends.



Whether emoticons have anything to do with this or not, I can't say.
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I behold from the beach your crooked inviting fingers,
I believe you refuse to go back without feeling of me;
We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
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Old 15-01-2020, 04:24   #40
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Re: Monitor for navigation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpt Pat View Post
Ignorance is only temporary, but stupidity is permanent. *

I hate emoticons (pictograms) in all forms. Humanity long ago abandoned pictographic writing (invented in Egypt and Mesopotamia from around 3,000 BC) in place of phonetic alphabets (such as Latin, which I'm writing with here). The reason: as noted above - words have agreed upon meanings. Pictures do not.

Why are we reverting to an old, inferior and imprecise method of expression by using pictograms? Pure laziness and a temporary expedience carried over from texting with ten-key keyboards on flip phones. It's not cool - it's just another example of the shrinking limbic brain in computer-addicted and sociophobic modern culture.

If you don't use your limbic system, it shrivels up, and you lose empathy. Which in my perspective is a major factor in the problems we have today. Evil is the absence of empathy. Emoticons are therefore a factor that promotes evil. Use your words - not pictures. Dare to be understood.


* “Youth ages, immaturity is outgrown, ignorance can be educated, and drunkenness sobered, but stupid lasts forever.”
― Aristophanes, c 400 BC
As Aristophanes c 400 BC states you are showing your age ,
I find your comments rather silly , as we are moving into a new technological area were texts and emojis are used more and more and the youth and the next generation move up,

who are you to tell them that this way of communication is wrong and not fit for purpose , this is as usual an old persons attitude to anything that they do not understand or do not like , (it was better in my day ) this forum is a 2 dimensionless place and language can be taken varying ways.

as we no longer see the eye and body language of the person writing, which makes up vast amounts of how we are being assessed when saying something, hence why emojis are a good way to show that we are joking or pulling someones leg, not perfect but better than when we used to sit and read forums and get all hot and bothered.

Remember the magical English language which has so many words with the same meanings can be interpenetrated differently depending on how we say it , our body language and how our tone may sound
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Old 15-01-2020, 16:04   #41
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Re: Monitor for navigation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post

And in any case what you said was "Japanese is a phonetic language". This is false. 99% of everything printed in Japanese is printed in Kanji, an absolutely non-phonetic writing system.

Allmost correct, but that probably more than 1% is made out of Kana (Syllables: Hiragana for particles and grammatical alterations, Katakana for foreign words). The use of knji is also difficult, because they have different readings (On=chinese original, Kun=Japanese). They may be composed out of radicals and frequently a japanese word is constructed out of two kanji. So things are difficult and you probably can´t classify the japanese written language just as a phonetic or pictographic system.



Back to the original topic:

To end this discussion, I may state, that a computer monitor should be able to clearly show the details not only of a kanji, so we are in need of a good resolution anyway (even if you don´t want to read japanese kanji on your screen.

What would be a decent resolution for a nav monitor?
The resolution of many plotter monitors is pretty poor in terms of pixel...


Regards,



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Old 15-01-2020, 19:11   #42
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Re: Monitor for navigation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpt Pat View Post
Ignorance is only temporary, but stupidity is permanent. *

I hate emoticons (pictograms) in all forms. Humanity long ago abandoned pictographic writing (invented in Egypt and Mesopotamia from around 3,000 BC) in place of phonetic alphabets (such as Latin, which I'm writing with here). The reason: as noted above - words have agreed upon meanings. Pictures do not.

Why are we reverting to an old, inferior and imprecise method of expression by using pictograms? Pure laziness and a temporary expedience carried over from texting with ten-key keyboards on flip phones. It's not cool - it's just another example of the shrinking limbic brain in computer-addicted and sociophobic modern culture.

If you don't use your limbic system, it shrivels up, and you lose empathy. Which in my perspective is a major factor in the problems we have today. Evil is the absence of empathy. Emoticons are therefore a factor that promotes evil. Use your words - not pictures. Dare to be understood.


* “Youth ages, immaturity is outgrown, ignorance can be educated, and drunkenness sobered, but stupid lasts forever.”
― Aristophanes, c 400 BC
Love how we’ve waded directly into the literal definition of lexical semantics with this. So if you were to make an oil painting of the letter A is it still a letter...what are letters but drawings of an agreed upon images that represent a sound or sounds to only a certain group of individuals. What one might consider lazy another would argue efficient.

I truly hope you see the irony in using a 2400 year old quote from a comedic satirical play-write, written in Koine Greek translated into English, to be regurgitated into a poor personal jab over written communication.

“Humans beings always do the most intelligent thing…after they’ve tried every stupid alternative and none of them have worked”

-Richard Buckminster Fuller

This quote is more relevant; Don’t worry I’ll wait for you to look it up.
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Old 15-01-2020, 23:52   #43
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Re: Monitor for navigation

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Hmm you know you can just "subscribe" to a thread right?
Yes but the emoji bumps the thread, subscribing does not.
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Old 16-01-2020, 00:40   #44
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Re: Monitor for navigation

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Allmost correct, but that probably more than 1% is made out of Kana (Syllables: Hiragana for particles and grammatical alterations, Katakana for foreign words). The use of knji is also difficult, because they have different readings (On=chinese original, Kun=Japanese). They may be composed out of radicals and frequently a japanese word is constructed out of two kanji. So things are difficult and you probably can´t classify the japanese written language just as a phonetic or pictographic system.

That Japanese may write in Kanji and throw in a very small proportion of characters from the Kana to represent foreign words etc. doesn't take away from my point. I also didn't say that Japanese writing is all pictographic. Only the basic Kanji characters are actually pictograms; but none of them are phonetic. It was stated above that the Japanese writing system is phonetic -- it is not. It is overwhelmingly logographic, with very limited use of the phonetic Kana, either used on their own (mostly children and foreigners) or as a very small admixture to the absolutely non-phonetic Kanji.


Another question is WHY one of the Kana is not the main writing system for Japanese. A Western mind (especially a native English-speaking one) can hardly conceive this, because Japanese is so phonologically pure and clear and so perfectly represented by the Kana, that by European standards the Japanese would seem to have an absolutely perfect writing system -- why don't they use it?! Instead of learning thousands of obscure scribbles, of which no one person can ever know all? Among European languages, only Finnish has a perfect writing system -- perfect correspondence between sounds and writing (German comes close; English and French are cluster ******; total train wrecks -- my personal apologies to all people learning English as a foreign language). There must be some strong magic in those pictures. Sorry, thread drift. Although that does directly relate to what was said above about pictographic (or let's say non-phonetic) writing having been superseded all over the world.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Topspin View Post
Back to the original topic:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Topspin View Post

To end this discussion, I may state, that a computer monitor should be able to clearly show the details not only of a kanji, so we are in need of a good resolution anyway (even if you don´t want to read japanese kanji on your screen.

What would be a decent resolution for a nav monitor?
The resolution of many plotter monitors is pretty poor in terms of pixel...

Regards,

-Richard

Short answer is I wouldn't recommend anything less than Full HD. I use 4k myself.



Long answer: Commercial chart plotters are not really made for navigation, they're made for pilotage. They don't need much resolution because you don't need to see a large area at the same time in great detail. They use vector charts which are processed in a way to aggressively drop out detail as you zoom out (with results like Team Vestas where navigators forgot to think about this). OpenCPN, especially if used with raster charts and a larger monitor, gives you a chance to have a rather different view which is actually suitable for navigation and large-scale passage planning. Based on my experience, I would say that you will be disappointed using O with anything less than a Full HD monitor, even if your chart plotter is only SVGA or even VGA.
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Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
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Old 16-01-2020, 02:51   #45
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Re: Monitor for navigation

OP: I need a monitor. Any suggestions?



Poster: Logograms and pictograms are not used like emojis.




LOL! Sometimes I think this forum needs a thread anchor to keep it from drifting too much.
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