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Old 04-12-2019, 06:34   #1366
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Re: La Vagabonde's crossing

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Originally Posted by daletournier View Post
This is something that crosses my mind regularly, crew put tremendous faith in the skipper and boat they join often ignorantly doing so, they dont know what they dont know, they have no idea how to judge the skippers ability or the seaworthiness of the vessel, or the skippers ability to make prudent decisions.

I have crew currently, nice young Belgium girl, she comments that I'm very conservative in regards to my cruising decisions ie my choice of Anchorages, moving if I'm not comfortable, anchor alarm, reefing early etc....shes mentioned this several times, It always gives me a giggle, I dont see my decisions as conservative, I see them as a result of having my ass handed to me enough to influence my cruising decisions.

I see this often on cruisers forum and associated comments, ignorance through limited experience. Tieing this into this passage, did Greta have enough knowledge, experience to make a prudent decision regarding this passage? Yer sure it worked out but did she really understand the risks involved? obviously Nikki did (I assume) but the others? maybe Riley did in theory?

Alot of faith is shown when inexperienced crew hop on someone's boat regarding the skippers decision making ,past ,present and future.
i guess that rules out having surfers on board!
they would want to anchor on the windward side of the island,just beyond the shore break
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Old 04-12-2019, 06:36   #1367
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Re: La Vagabonde's crossing

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I think its time for you contributors to stick to the crossing and leave climate change out of the conversation.

Its tiring deleting multiple posts. Next one gets the thread closed.
Hey Weavis, now and then a couple of posts pop up on my email that dont make it to the thread or stay there long, just saw one about turds rising to the top!!!, crazy stuff, you guys obviously delete alot more than we see, yes, it must get tiring. It's a pity because generally even when the discussion drifts overall it's good.
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Old 04-12-2019, 06:38   #1368
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Re: La Vagabonde's crossing

Auspicious, I take no offense, and when you consider we, as a race, have known for almost 100 years we are in the beginning of a significant climate shift that will most probably reduce the population by 1/3 -1/2, stocking up might be the solution
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Old 04-12-2019, 06:38   #1369
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Re: La Vagabonde's crossing

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Erm...... I think you need to read up on the difference between a ‘right’ and an ‘opinion’.
There is no science I am aware that identifies facts of what is and is not a human right. Lists of human rights and basic human rights such as those declared by the UN are opinions. This does return to the difference between educated opinion and opinion at large to which I referred. Even the UN doesn't say you can have as many offspring as you like; they say you have a human right to marry and have a family.

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I have no kids ,do I get some carbon credits? surely this makes me very green, between no kids and sitting on a sailing boat 24/7 I'm almost a non hypocrite......almost
I don't get to decide that. I think you deserve some credit for living on 1x30, 1x50, or 2x30 with adjustment for shore services (laundry, showers, et al). Deciding not to have children is like retirement savings - it is the gift that keeps giving to the planet so perhaps you should get some credit for that as well. *grin*

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Well, it's still down to the skipper, and the results speak for themselves. When the vessel arrives in good condition with everyone in good spirits and good condition, the skipper has done his or her job.
It's better to be lucky than smart. Two effective watchstanders is hard to describe as really good seamanship. Clearly from what we have learned today that was not Ms. Henderson's call. I speculate that it was not her call to put the Thunbergs to work.

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As to shore support -- this voyage was an example of a kind of very active routing which I have not previously seen non-racers do, with what seem to me to be spectacular results. We discussed it above. I had some shore support on my last big ocean voyage but nowhere near this level. I will think this through from zero before the next big ocean passage, for sure.
I've benefitted from shore support and I've been shore support. Whether a competent volunteer or someone paid (e.g. Chris Parker) they are better rested and have access to more resources than are available aboard. I've told enough stories on this thread for a while so I won't impose more. To have someone you trust to provide advice and counsel is a big help. Trust is key.

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As to "effective long-range comms", how right you are about this. Although I am a ham and love HF radio and normally get along fine with it, we used an Iridium Go on the last big voyage and loved its total reliability and utter lack of faff. Continuous and effortless access to all kinds of weather data, and the ability to communicate freely with people on shore, was a revelation and of course was a precondition to the kind of very active routing done by LV on this passage.
The Iridium GO! works. Not my first choice. Some of that is based on personal preferences. I prioritize communications as email, then text, then voice. Email lets me send a good bit of coherent information in one chunk. The biggest issues with the GO! is that email gets broken up into SMS-sized chunks and that getting data to a real computer is hard. I know Passageweather has an interface; I haven't seen one without subscribing to their service. I really want a big-boy keyboard vice Chiclets. Voice to text in an environment that is often high noise is not reliable.

Let's not lose sight of speed. Pactor IV is four times faster than Iridium. Starlink and other "someday" services aren't relevant, and testing at 30,000 ft does not equate to performance on the surface.

There is no question that an always on text message capability like that on newer SPOT, InReach, and GO! is very convenient and helpful. It just doesn't measure up in my mind to HF/SSB w/ Pactor or a connected Iridium 9555.

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if we as a forum encourage more people to make out of season passages in ill equipped boats with young children and only basic sailing skills there should soon be a noticeable decrease in population growth......
Which leads back to a point I made earlier in this thread. The "season" is April and May. The rest of the year is either hurricane season or weather winter. Good weather forecasting before departure and during passage is definitely critical.

Personally I think inadequate number of watchstanders is/was a much greater shortfall than happening to have an infant aboard.
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Old 04-12-2019, 06:41   #1370
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Re: La Vagabonde's crossing

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Originally Posted by atoll View Post
i guess that rules out having surfers on board!
they would want to anchor on the windward side of the island,just beyond the shore break[emoji3]
Lol, something I have to guard against is making sure crews desires dont influence incorrectly my decision making.....specially when they're attractive [emoji1787][emoji1787]......note to self ,good seamanship is taking on non attractive crew[emoji16]
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Old 04-12-2019, 06:58   #1371
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Re: La Vagabonde's crossing

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Originally Posted by daletournier View Post
This is something that crosses my mind regularly, crew put tremendous faith in the skipper and boat they join often ignorantly doing so, they dont know what they dont know, they have no idea how to judge the skippers ability or the seaworthiness of the vessel, or the skippers ability to make prudent decisions.
Agree. When I sort through applicants for crew and schedule phone (Whatsapp/Skype/Messenger) interviews I tell them what my criteria are (I can teach people to sail, I can't teach them to make good decisions) and that it is a discussion and I expect them to be interviewing me while I am interviewing them.

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It always gives me a giggle, I dont see my decisions as conservative, I see them as a result of having my ass handed to me enough to influence my cruising decisions.
I'm with you. To paraphrase myself *grin* I try not to repeat mistakes; that leaves me free to make new and creative mistakes.

That, frankly, is one of the real benefits of fora like CF. The challenge of course is sorting the wheat from the chafe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by daletournier View Post
I see this often on cruisers forum and associated comments, ignorance through limited experience. Tieing this into this passage, did Greta have enough knowledge, experience to make a prudent decision regarding this passage? Yer sure it worked out but did she really understand the risks involved? obviously Nikki did (I assume) but the others? maybe Riley did in theory?
The recent post upthread to an article in a Swedish boating magazine is relevant here. I flipped back and forth between the original and the translation. The subtext is that the Thunbergs had some first rate counsel. I think Jimmy and Ms. Henderson should have held fast on Ms. Henderson being in command. I believe that the best sailors would have been better rested.

I have a similar discussion with owners on owner-aboard deliveries. They hire me to take command (along with other things, like training). That I delegate command back to owners as part of the learning experience does not mean my word is not final. It behooves me not to be capricious.

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Originally Posted by S/V Adeline View Post
Auspicious, I take no offense, and when you consider we, as a race, have known for almost 100 years we are in the beginning of a significant climate shift that will most probably reduce the population by 1/3 -1/2, stocking up might be the solution
I appreciate your good humor.

Christmas is coming. You might write your offspring and let them know that some of them are spares and their choice of gifts for you will be taken into account.

My wife has three siblings. She and I agree on which two are spares.
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Old 04-12-2019, 07:06   #1372
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Re: La Vagabonde's crossing

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The Iridium GO! works. Not my first choice. Some of that is based on personal preferences. I prioritize communications as email, then text, then voice. Email lets me send a good bit of coherent information in one chunk. The biggest issues with the GO! is that email gets broken up into SMS-sized chunks and that getting data to a real computer is hard. I know Passageweather has an interface; I haven't seen one without subscribing to their service. I really want a big-boy keyboard vice Chiclets. Voice to text in an environment that is often high noise is not reliable.

Let's not lose sight of speed. Pactor IV is four times faster than Iridium. Starlink and other "someday" services aren't relevant, and testing at 30,000 ft does not equate to performance on the surface.

There is no question that an always on text message capability like that on newer SPOT, InReach, and GO! is very convenient and helpful. It just doesn't measure up in my mind to HF/SSB w/ Pactor or a connected Iridium 9555.
I have xgate installed on my laptop and get full email support through the iridium go. I send photos and other attachments without much trouble at all. I can surf the web (slowly) with xweb as well. <---- that requires patience.
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Old 04-12-2019, 07:08   #1373
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Re: La Vagabonde's crossing

Nikki Henderson interviewed by BBC:
https://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-50659318
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Old 04-12-2019, 07:08   #1374
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Re: La Vagabonde's crossing

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Originally Posted by Auspicious View Post
. . . It's better to be lucky than smart. Two effective watchstanders is hard to describe as really good seamanship. Clearly from what we have learned today that was not Ms. Henderson's call. I speculate that it was not her call to put the Thunbergs to work.

She had the right and the obligation to refuse to go, if something was being imposed on her which she considered to be unsatisfory from a seamanship point of view. As I've said way upthread, I would have organized that passage differently in several respects, but as I've also said, the results here speak for themselves and Nikki got the job done with flying colors. Bully for her.



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. . I've benefitted from shore support and I've been shore support. Whether a competent volunteer or someone paid (e.g. Chris Parker) they are better rested and have access to more resources than are available aboard. I've told enough stories on this thread for a while so I won't impose more. To have someone you trust to provide advice and counsel is a big help. Trust is key.

The Iridium GO! works. Not my first choice. Some of that is based on personal preferences. I prioritize communications as email, then text, then voice. Email lets me send a good bit of coherent information in one chunk. The biggest issues with the GO! is that email gets broken up into SMS-sized chunks and that getting data to a real computer is hard. I know Passageweather has an interface; I haven't seen one without subscribing to their service. I really want a big-boy keyboard vice Chiclets. Voice to text in an environment that is often high noise is not reliable.

Let's not lose sight of speed. Pactor IV is four times faster than Iridium. Starlink and other "someday" services aren't relevant, and testing at 30,000 ft does not equate to performance on the surface.

There is no question that an always on text message capability like that on newer SPOT, InReach, and GO! is very convenient and helpful. It just doesn't measure up in my mind to HF/SSB w/ Pactor or a connected Iridium 9555. . . .

Thread drift, but it looks to me like you weren't using the Iridium Go right for email. I was sending and receiving emails without any issues, even with attachments up to 1 megabyte. I was using a rugged Android tablet with an external keyboard, then bluetoothing files to the ship's computer, just because the Iridium Android apps are so convenient to use, but you can also do it from your laptop if you set it up for that. I got most of my weather data using SailDocs, including the brilliant "fetch webpage" function. You can even do some very basic browsing with the Go and the brilliant low bandwidth browser which strips out all the graphics of pages you want to see -- I read the New York Times from time to time on anchor watch with icebergs drifting by, got into the Danish Met site when I needed something from there, etc. It is slow but it is bloody brilliant, exceeding my expectations in every possible way. Absolutely adequate for any possible data you need for navigation and passage planning. Not adequate if you need to send and receive presentations and big spreadsheets for your work, but for everything else it's perfect.



I don't have and haven't used Pactor Dragon; I've got a Pactor III. Its THEORETICAL maximum speed is higher than Go, but with the radio there is a huge overhead in figuring out propagation, finding a station, negotiating a connection, and then often waiting for better propagation at a different time of day, dealing with interrupted connections, etc etc etc. Huge faff factor, and if you divide the amount of data you send and receive by the total amount of time you spend making the connections, the throughput is vastly much slower than the theoretical speed. Plus you can't count on having a connection when you need it. Totally different process from just press a button and get your email with the Go, any time of the day or night. Plain text emails of any length are sent and received in a matter of seconds, infallibly, at the press of a button. HTML email or email with attachments may take longer, but up to a meg or two still with almost infallible reliability. The voice connections on the Go suck, but for data this is t*ts, far better practical throughput, fafflessness and overall reliability than any radio connection or anything else I've used short of Fleet Broadband.
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Old 04-12-2019, 07:28   #1375
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Re: La Vagabonde's crossing

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Ahh.. A supporter of the new Religion.. Science.
I have great difficulty in thinking of a single Scientific discovery that has benefited the Planet and the Natural World.. but the list of things that have/are destroying the balance are innumerable...
I hope you include humanity in the "Natural World'.

Science benefits everyone, and is part of the fabric of our civilisation. Today, we live longer than ever before, thanks to pharmaceutical, medical, and health science. In research circles these benefits are called 'impact': things like improvements in our health and life-expectancy, reduced losses from natural disasters, or simply more dollars in the bank from commercial exploitation of scientific discoveries.
Vaccines saves many lives. Physics and electronics have given us satellites, telecommunications, and the Internet. You would not be reading the CF without them. Chemistry and biology have provided use with all sorts of products, food, and enabled the agricultural (“green”) revolution enhancing our crop yields. The science of evolution and natural selection explains the character of ecosystems, and modern meteorology saves lives and help us safeguard our properties.
While public trust in scientists, and their work can be mixed, a strong majority of the American public thinks of science as having a positive effect on society, and most expect continued benefits to accrue from science in the years ahead.

Public opinion (in USA) doesn't seem to be on your side.

“Trust and Mistrust in Americans’ Views of Scientific Experts”
More Americans have confidence in scientists, but there are political divides over the role of scientific experts in policy issues
https://www.pewresearch.org/science/...tific-experts/

“Most Americans say science has brought benefits to society and expect more to come”https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...-more-to-come/
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Old 04-12-2019, 07:31   #1376
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Re: La Vagabonde's crossing

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... This does return to the difference between educated opinion and opinion at large to which I referred...
An interesting book, I can recommend.
“Agnotology: the Making and Unmaking of Ignorance” ~ by Proctor and Schiebinger
What don't we know, and why don't we know it? What keeps ignorance alive, or allows it to be used as a political instrument? Agnotology —the study of ignorance— provides a new theoretical perspective to broaden traditional questions about "how we know" to ask: Why don't we know what we don't know? The essays assembled in Agnotology show that ignorance is often more than just an absence of knowledge; it can also be the outcome of cultural and political struggles. Ignorance has a history and a political geography, but there are also things people don't want you to know ("Doubt is our product" is the tobacco industry slogan). Individual chapters treat examples from the realms of global climate change, military secrecy, female orgasm, environmental denialism, Native American paleontology, theoretical archaeology, racial ignorance, and more. The goal of this volume is to better understand how and why various forms of knowing do not come to be, or have disappeared, or have become invisible.
https://www.sup.org/books/title/?id=11232
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Old 04-12-2019, 07:31   #1377
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Re: La Vagabonde's crossing

So to my earlier post, yes they did have a professional sailor onboard. Nikki
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Old 04-12-2019, 08:00   #1378
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pirate Re: La Vagabonde's crossing

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I hope you include humanity in the "Natural World'.

Science benefits everyone, and is part of the fabric of our civilisation. Today, we live longer than ever before, thanks to pharmaceutical, medical, and health science. In research circles these benefits are called 'impact': things like improvements in our health and life-expectancy, reduced losses from natural disasters, or simply more dollars in the bank from commercial exploitation of scientific discoveries.
Vaccines saves many lives. Physics and electronics have given us satellites, telecommunications, and the Internet. You would not be reading the CF without them. Chemistry and biology have provided use with all sorts of products, food, and enabled the agricultural (“green”) revolution enhancing our crop yields. The science of evolution and natural selection explains the character of ecosystems, and modern meteorology saves lives and help us safeguard our properties.
While public trust in scientists, and their work can be mixed, a strong majority of the American public thinks of science as having a positive effect on society, and most expect continued benefits to accrue from science in the years ahead.

Public opinion (in USA) doesn't seem to be on your side.

“Trust and Mistrust in Americans’ Views of Scientific Experts”
More Americans have confidence in scientists, but there are political divides over the role of scientific experts in policy issues
https://www.pewresearch.org/science/...tific-experts/

“Most Americans say science has brought benefits to society and expect more to come”https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...-more-to-come/
Well public opinion would not, it would mean forgoing to many toys.. screw you jack, we're fireproof.
As to Humanity being part of the Natural World.???
No, not any longer. we have become unnatural in too many ways.. from chemical farming to living longer and preserving the 'runts of the litters'.. repeatedly destroying new environments without benefits other than short term gain.. and we never seem to learn the lessons.. to the cost of every other type of species
No sorry mate, like the Toredo Worm the only purpose we seem to serve is to break down and destroy the very material that feeds us.. and theres only one log.
But hey.. Don't worry there's very few who think like me.
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