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Old 27-11-2019, 11:49   #901
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Re: La Vagabonde's crossing

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[anyone] is entitled to his opinion no matter what.
(and her opinion). Indeed, but normally one keeps it to oneself if it deviates too far from the norms dictated by common decency and respect for your fellow human being.
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Old 27-11-2019, 11:52   #902
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Re: La Vagabonde's crossing

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i think i have made my point of view abundantly clear regarding these fraudsters
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Old 27-11-2019, 11:54   #903
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Re: La Vagabonde's crossing

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My wife and I generally sail as two and we have settled on a 6-on, 6-off routine under most conditions. That allows about 5 hours of solid sleep for each of us during the night and another 3 hours or so during the day. While we are happy to reach a quiet anchorage we in general feel rested during a passage.

To my mind there are two things that make this possible:
  • A good autopilot/self-steering system. We would not be able to keep this schedule if we had to hand steer the whole 6 hours.
  • Conservative sail management to reduce (but not eliminate) the chances of having to wake the off watch for a sail change.

It means we proceed more slowly than the boat is able, because we reef early and un-reef late. LV seems to be using a similar tactic. Personally I wouldn't be using a 2/2 or 3/3 night watch schedule with essentially two watchstanders, BTDT, but if it works for them....

Having a third person aboard, even if they only stand watch during the day is a game changer. We've had a few passages with others aboard who were comfortable on the boat but not with night work. It still allows a little leisure/relaxation that is much harder to get with two.
i think one of the more repeatable opinions was tho that that is suitable for shorter passages but not for ocean / extended ones, myself being short handed and not one of the " big " boys can appreciate where you are coming from , but can also see their point ,, however ii can only wonder how the likes of the Hisskocks , the Smeatons etc etc ever managed to get out of the harbour according to these know alls
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Old 27-11-2019, 12:02   #904
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Re: La Vagabonde's crossing

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i think one of the more repeatable opinions was tho that that is suitable for shorter passages but not for ocean / extended ones,...
That's somewhat why I posted in regards to the questions of seamanship. The schedule we worked out (6/6) represents a circumnavigation that included 20k miles in 11 months (Darwin to Sitka via SA/Panama/Hawaii) and certainly includes some long passages. Panama to Hawaii itself is over 4000 miles and took us 4 weeks, about a week of that drifting at 2-3 knots. We still find 6/6 to be our preferred system. Can't say how it would be for anyone else, that's just what works for us.
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Old 27-11-2019, 12:03   #905
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Re: La Vagabonde's crossing

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I don't have a problem with reading, music (one ear), podcasts (one ear), or even LISTENING to movies (one ear) - who actually needs to watch Captain Ron again?

This is situational. If there is a lot of traffic distractions get set aside. If there is navigational risk (as in much of @Dockside's cruising grounds) no distractions.

Question of philosophy, I guess, but for me -- a well-run vessel at sea, whether it's a ship or a yacht, has AT ALL TIMES at least one person who is devoting 100% (not 10%, not 50%, not 90%, but 100%) attention to the vessel and to being aware of everything going on around and inside the vessel. It's a sacred and inviolable law on my boat. It's pretty much required by Rule 5 of the COLREGS anyway. I call it "driving the boat", and just like being behind the wheel of a car on the road it means being responsible for the 3 or 4 or 5 other people on board -- it is a serious responsibility and on my boat it is strictly forbidden to engage in any kind of distracting entertainment, even far offshore. If the weather is good and there is no traffic -- great -- it makes the job easier -- but it does not mean, for me, that you don't do the job at all. There is always a lot to do -- look around, be aware, listen, look at the radar, watch the wind, watch the barometer, watch the clouds, look at the rigging and sails, listen for bilge, AIS and other alarms, monitor the radio, check regularly to be sure that the vessel is on course, etc etc etc. Be AWARE. This is what Rule 5 means and I take it seriously. The offshore sailors I know in these parts and the ones I sail with have exactly the same approach.



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. . . Passengers are more work than an empty boat. Two is a small crew and that seems to be all they really have.

"Passengers" of course are more work, but I rarely have any passengers. Whoever is on board my boat is with rare exceptions crew and gets trained to do something useful. Keeping a good watch is not rocket science and I can't recall that I've ever had anyone on board who could not be trained fairly easily to do it.



Morever being crew and having responsibilities makes the passage much more fun and interesting for people on board -- it gives meaning to their presence. Being a mere passenger on an offshore passage on a small yacht must be incredibly boring and stupid, and even frightening.


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. . Militaries and commercial carriers have done a lot of research on sleep. Human beings need regular longer periods of sleep. It's one thing to get up to pee *sigh* and something entirely different to get up for a three or four hour watch. That disrupts your sleep cycle and has measurable impact on judgment and reaction time. . .

Of course, and this is extremely important, it is fundamental. Keeping the crew well fed and well rested is fundamental to crew management, which is fundamental to seamanship. A key part of seamanship is to come to the passage with adequate resources of all kinds -- food, water, electrical power, and no less important -- crew. My boat is almost always well-crewed on long passages, but not only do people not read or watch movies on watch, they almost never read or watch movies off watch either. They are encouraged to sleep every chance they get -- 8 hours of sleep (or even more), 8 hours on watch, 8 hours doing other useful things like cooking, fixing things, making coffee for others, helping with navigation, splicing, preparing meals ahead which can be microwaved in bad weather, whatever. I have been known to ORDER people to go get some sleep, if I see them just goofing off. Passagemaking is WORK, and should be approached like that.



Then you're always ready with a fresh, alert, energetic and well-fed crew in case of some challenge like a gale, something breaking, bad viz, a nasty traffic situation, etc. etc. You might squeak by with sleep-deprived or undernourished crew when everything is going fine, but what happens when it's not? A lot of boats are abandoned which would probably not have needed to be abandoned had there been reserves of energy and alertness on the part of the crew -- had the crew not been tired or sleep-deprived or badly fed. I say again -- crew is a fundamental resource like anything else, and managing this resource and keeping it in top condition and a top state of readiness is fundamental to seamanship.


A well-managed and well-functioning crew executing a well-designed and thoroughly thought-through passage plan also makes passagemaking FUN.



One footnote to this is that the hardest crew management job of all is to ensure that the SKIPPER gets enough sleep. The skipper's job is never done and a good skipper can't sleep when the going gets tough. The skipper, when he's sleeping at all, is always sleeping with one eye open, EVEN when he has a fully competent first mate. On passage, I sleep with a plotter/radar repeater in my bunk. This is why I think it's extremely important that wherever possible the skipper is NOT in the regular watch rotation. The skill of accumulating enough sleep in repeated one or two hour snatches is especially important for the skipper. Whether or not I'm in the regular watch rotation, I normally do not sleep during the graveyard shift (02:00 -- 06:00) in any case, and try to get most of my sleep during the day.
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Old 27-11-2019, 12:10   #906
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Re: La Vagabonde's crossing

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Originally Posted by Cherod View Post
. . . however ii can only wonder how the likes of the Hisskocks , the Smeatons etc etc ever managed to get out of the harbour according to these know alls

You work with what you have, and make necessary compromises. Being short handed obviously does not make passagemaking impossible. But it certainly makes it more stressful and greatly increases the risks. I have done a certain amount of passagemaking single handed and even more double handed, sometimes with the second person being a non-sailor. Obviously it can be done, and if approached with care and skill and diligence it can be done reasonably safely. I don't, personally, enjoy it. YMMV.
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Old 27-11-2019, 12:18   #907
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Re: La Vagabonde's crossing

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That's somewhat why I posted in regards to the questions of seamanship. The schedule we worked out (6/6) represents a circumnavigation that included 20k miles in 11 months (Darwin to Sitka via SA/Panama/Hawaii) and certainly includes some long passages. Panama to Hawaii itself is over 4000 miles and took us 4 weeks, about a week of that drifting at 2-3 knots. We still find 6/6 to be our preferred system. Can't say how it would be for anyone else, that's just what works for us.
that is very heartening to read ,, although i do not expect to be doing any RTW i do hope to be making some failry extended trips,, my wife and myself being the basics of our crew .. thank you
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Old 27-11-2019, 12:26   #908
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Re: La Vagabonde's crossing

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You work with what you have, and make necessary compromises. Being short handed obviously does not make passagemaking impossible. But it certainly makes it more stressful and greatly increases the risks. I have done a certain amount of passagemaking single handed and even more double handed, sometimes with the second person being a non-sailor. Obviously it can be done, and if approached with care and skill and diligence it can be done reasonably safely. I don't, personally, enjoy it. YMMV.
oh errr ,, i thot that my question was obviously facetious ,, thank you for that rather stating the obvious reply anyway ..
personally i have no desire to go to sea alone and love having passengers on board , sometimes a lot easier than a bunch of know alls .
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Old 27-11-2019, 12:33   #909
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Re: La Vagabonde's crossing

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that is very heartening to read ,, although i do not expect to be doing any RTW i do hope to be making some failry extended trips,, my wife and myself being the basics of our crew .. thank you
You'll figure out what works for you pretty quick. I've talked about this subject with dozens of cruising couples over the years, and there is no rhyme or reasons as to who likes which schedule. Experience, age, boat type or size, every couple has a different idea of what is right for them.

We do 4/4 for longer passages and 3/3 for anything under 3 nights.

And I hate sailing with crew. I do not want anyone besides my wife in my space for that length of time.

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Old 27-11-2019, 12:33   #910
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Re: La Vagabonde's crossing

finally peeling off and now almost due east , start of the run down rhum line to Lisbon,,
they do seem to have been so far very fortunate with wind systems , let us hope it continues
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Old 27-11-2019, 12:39   #911
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Re: La Vagabonde's crossing

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You'll figure out what works for you pretty quick. I've talked about this subject with dozens of cruising couples over the years, and there is no rhyme or reasons as to who likes which schedule. Experience, age, boat type or size, every couple has a different idea of what is right for them.

We do 4/4 for longer passages and 3/3 for anything under 3 nights.

And I hate sailing with crew. I do not want anyone besides my wife in my space for that length of time.

Matt
ha , we did , crossing the north sea 2 years ago ( i know that you know what that can be like ) ,,, contrary to some of the know all big boys on here , my totally inexperienced wife was the best crew i could have wished for , 5 days and 4 nights .
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Old 27-11-2019, 12:53   #912
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Re: La Vagabonde's crossing

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some of the know all big boys on here
You keep using that word.
I do not think it means what you think it means.
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Old 27-11-2019, 12:55   #913
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Re: La Vagabonde's crossing

There are different human strategies:
a) some people are trying to improve the world by correcting faults,
b) some people are trying to improve their perception of the world by ignoring faults.

Accepting faults in one's heroes, idols, favourite media celebs, etc. is amongst the most difficult human tasks. If somebody is not comfortable with that, they may always opt for strategy b) above.
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Old 27-11-2019, 13:05   #914
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Re: La Vagabonde's crossing

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You keep using that word.
I do not think it means what you think it means.
obviously you are wrong !!
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Old 27-11-2019, 13:12   #915
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Re: La Vagabonde's crossing

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There are different human strategies:
a) some people are trying to improve the world by correcting faults,
b) some people are trying to improve their perception of the world by ignoring faults.

Accepting faults in one's heroes, idols, favourite media celebs, etc. is amongst the most difficult human tasks. If somebody is not comfortable with that, they may always opt for strategy b) above.
there are other options available
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