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Old 22-11-2019, 10:21   #466
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Re: La Vagabonde's crossing

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Originally Posted by atoll View Post
no but i did sail twice around the world with both of my kids from when they were born untill their early teens.

as a concerned parent i take issue about the prudence of sailing other than short coastal trips with babies under 18 months.

I generally agree, but IMHO, it's also a parent's natural right to operate within certain parameters. It's certainly more risky than sitting at home, but perhaps not much more risky than riding in a car to a pediatrician's office. Years ago, children were taken on the Titanic, and also by square rigger. In the next few generations, it might be more risky to cross the ocean by electrogravitics or by teleportation. I think it's hard to critique a parental decision, that is not clearly neglect or abuse. They seem like they have taken substantial preparations.


I'll add, if anything substantial goes wrong, it will be a big deal...
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Old 22-11-2019, 10:21   #467
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Re: La Vagabonde's crossing

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no but i did sail twice around the world with both of my kids from when they were born untill their early teens.

as a concerned parent i take issue about the prudence of sailing other than short coastal trips with babies under 18 months.
Well my hats off to you , but it takes all types , beliefs and motivaters to this make world , best we let others make their own decisions without trying to impose ours upon them .
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Old 22-11-2019, 10:31   #468
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Re: La Vagabonde's crossing

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Personally I think taking your baby, infant, toddler etc. with you regardless of of the "danger" of life in general is still more admirable than stuffing them in a germ-infested daycare for 60% of their waking hours and then ignoring them when they get home.
I do think that this particular LaVag journey has quite a few increased risk factors (matched by big potential rewards for all parties, even Nikki the Pro), but I wholeheartedly agree with your "family inclusive" sentiment. I was apparently 3 months old the first time I went on an offshore passage and I've made it to 59 still in one piece. In the current PC world, I suppose I should be considering posthumously suing Dad for child abuse!

Since I gave up racing around 20 years ago, I've sailed with small children and babies but also always take our two dogs with us every time we sail. Not transatlantic – but UK to the Med, Scandinavia etc. They soon get used to the toilet routine (just need lots of disinfectant). They have a lot more adventures than they'd get in the boarding kennels.

Talking of non-able crewmember distractions, Nelson's flagship Victory (and all RN ships) had an entire live farmyard onboard and they coped fine. She once had 50 live bullocks transported to her during one of her French coast blockade patrols.

The only time I/we almost lost a baby overboard was 35 years ago when I was racing J24s. My brother - who is a lot more casual and slap-happy than me, came to visit without his wife but with his 6-month-old son. Winds were not too bad, so he joined us a for a weekend round-the-cans club race with said baby. A bit unsual on a J - but only a few pounds extra weight - so it was fine. The spinnaker launch bag on a J was usually fixed in the open hatchway just in front of the cockpit - which Mike thought was a great “easy to keep an eye on” soft place to bed down the baby for the next two hours. He's even more competitive than me, so he had no intention of sitting out the race down-below babysitting.

We rounded the windward mark; the bowman did his usual 3 second halyard lunge at the mast to get the spinny up whilst one of us pulled up the slack in the cockpit and handled the sheets. Mike caught his son as he was also being launched out of the bag. In reality the baby wouldn’t have gone far – probably would have just fallen in the cockpit - but’s it’s amusing in hindsight to think of the accident waiting to happen – and the carefree attitude (or stupidity) of my brother.
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Old 22-11-2019, 10:33   #469
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Re: La Vagabonde's crossing

Since they will be filming during the crossing, we will get to see some great video. The scarier the crossing is, the bigger the audience. If they did decide to do this based on the publicity they will get, this was probably a difficult decision. Opportunity of a lifetime for them, and the publicity that Greta gives them from not flying on a plane. Seems like Greta could have made an exception in this case. The jets have seats that are empty so she is not reducing any environmental impact by sailing. I bet she is scared sh**less at this point.
As for dear little Lenny, the risks are high. Babies can get sick very fast and need urgent help. I suppose Riley and Elayna have already done a lot of medical training and have drugs and supplies for many instances that might come up. But still.
I crossed with the ARC when it was hell week for the last 6 days. Boats straggled in to St Lucia with broken everything. I only lost my antenna. But day after day in high waves and continuous squalls was scary and would be NO place to try to take care of a baby. I saw comments from Elayna that Lenny is crying due to being scared of the big banging noises. I think it could cause him to develop some early fears, or it could make him into a tough sailor boy.
Just hoping they make it across alive and well.
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Old 22-11-2019, 10:44   #470
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Re: La Vagabonde's crossing

Mustn't forget there is always something - if Jeanne Socrates had needed rescuing in the middle of the Southern Ocean there would have been a lot of critique of her. But she didn't and she made it. We all love her.


I really admire what Riley and his patch-work crew are doing. They have good equipment, feel comfortable on their boat and retained the services of a top-notch skipper. So they've prepared well and I'm quite sure they have weighed up the risks carefully. That just leaves the toddler. Well I would like to see him alongside his peers in 18 years time, peers currently sitting in their own sh*t in a creche waiting for mummy or daddy to come to the rescue.
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Old 22-11-2019, 10:54   #471
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pirate Re: La Vagabonde's crossing

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There's a big difference between adults choosing to have a potentially dangerous adventure such as extreme sky diving or mountain climbing tall peaks or crossing North Atlantic out of season but there's nothing brave or adventuresome about exposing a one year old baby to unnecessary danger. I'm all for cruising couples with kids and think it's a great lifestyle, but most experienced cruising couples I've met cut back on the more strenuous passages until their kids are a bit older and able to be more resilient if things go wrong. Crossing the Atlantic this time of year isn't something even more experienced cruising adults would attempt, they'd wait until conditions moderated in the late spring. I'm sure La Vagabonde is a great boat and extremely seaworthy, etc. etc. and after this they can brag it's even good for crossing the Atlantic in the winter, but exposing their one year old to the danger inherent in this voyage has lost them a LOT of credibility with me. It's not a sensible or seamanlike thing to do. I see it as a selfish attempt to garner even more notoriety and publicity by carrying on as if they hadn't just had a baby. That's pretty inconsiderate and self centered. They'd have impressed me a lot more by choosing to keep their search for $$$, fame, and notoriety in the back seat to their baby's safety, at least until it's old enough to have a fighting chance of survival in the event of an onboard emergency. I don't know what their motivation was for doing this voyage this time of year, but if you take their sponsorship and the press the young climate activists presence brings them, I can't imagine any experienced cruising couple choosing to take their baby out in this when they could have safely stayed on this side of this side of the Atlantic until spring and then enjoyed a much more pleasant and safer passage. I hope they make it safely across without too much discomfort, but I'll still think it was a very selfish and foolish thing to do with a one year old on board.
You have obviously have never heard of Rosie Swales, nor been bothered to look her up..
In 1973 she sailed round Cape Horn on a 30ft catamaran with her husband and two children under school age on board.. this trip by La Vaga is a Milk Run in comparison.
But hey.. Like Rosie.. Their boat is their home.
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Old 22-11-2019, 10:54   #472
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Re: La Vagabonde's crossing

As someone grown when there was a little concern about safety, no safety belts or day care we kids did what we wanted during the days (and got spanked if we were caught doing it), I find it somewhat delusional to be overprotective.
It's a perfect sailing weather out there and there's not so big difference of risks sailing west to east in different seasons that it's prudent to say other season is irresponsible and other is not. If they were doing south the US coast against the GS or southern ocean during winter that would make a difference but this in a well prepared boat and crew, not.

Says a father who took his teenaged daughters to Cairo during the coop agains Mursi, best trip ever
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Old 22-11-2019, 10:59   #473
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Re: La Vagabonde's crossing

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You have obviously have never heard of Rosie Swales, nor been bothered to look her up..
In 1973 she sailed round Cape Horn on a 30ft catamaran with her husband and two children under school age on board.. this trip by La Vaga is a Milk Run in comparison.
But hey.. Like Rosie.. Their boat is their home.
Yes I have mentioned Rosie a few times but she just gets ignored , does not fit in with the modern pc crowd .
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Old 22-11-2019, 11:05   #474
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pirate Re: La Vagabonde's crossing

Its not an Outremmer or Gunboat..
30ft boat trash..
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Old 22-11-2019, 11:10   #475
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Re: La Vagabonde's crossing

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
You have obviously have never heard of Rosie Swales, nor been bothered to look her up..
In 1973 she sailed round Cape Horn on a 30ft catamaran with her husband and two children under school age on board.. this trip by La Vaga is a Milk Run in comparison.
But hey.. Like Rosie.. Their boat is their home.
the kids were much older,and they nearly died a few times

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosie_Swale-Pope
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Old 22-11-2019, 11:11   #476
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Re: La Vagabonde's crossing

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Yes I have mentioned Rosie a few times but she just gets ignored , does not fit in with the modern pc crowd .
Exactly, we've become a bunch of sissies. We live long, but doing what? Sitting behind screens waiting for some kind of pension which is always 15 years away. I think we were probably happier when we were still flying through windscreens, drowning during mis-adventures at sea, experimenting with flying machines which had a 50/50 chance of dumping the intrepid pilot right back onto the hard, etc. Nowadays the only main risk we still face is repetitive strain injury to the smart phone thumb. And cancer from useless stress at work. So as mentioned, I admire Riley and his folk.

Which reminds me, time to take a look at how they are doing. Does anyone have the latest on what happens next? I'm here to learn after all.
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Old 22-11-2019, 11:14   #477
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Re: La Vagabonde's crossing

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Says a father who took his teenaged daughters to Cairo during the coop agains Mursi, best trip ever
But I think the point was that the number of possible critical health issues for a baby/toddler is much greater than that of a teenager.
The Rebel Heart case was obviously different, with a badly prepared old boat and bad decisions and crippled communication.
The one similarity is a baby onboard in the middle of an ocean.
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Old 22-11-2019, 11:15   #478
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Re: La Vagabonde's crossing

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Originally Posted by atoll View Post
no but i did sail twice around the world with both of my kids from when they were born untill their early teens.

as a concerned parent i take issue about the prudence of sailing other than short coastal trips with babies under 18 months.
This exchange reminds of a quote attributed (correctly?) to George Bernard Shaw:

"The trouble with this world is that
the ignorant are cocksure
and the intelligent are full of doubt."

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Well my hats off to you , but it takes all types , beliefs and motivaters to this make world , best we let others make their own decisions without trying to impose ours upon them .
I have yet to hear anyone "imposing" anything. Only mostly seasoned passagemakers expressing reservations and explaining their reasoning based on their own significant experience. Given all the factors in this particular case, such opinions promote worthwhile & educational debate for others contemplating passages with similar risks. This type of discourse should be welcomed on an open forum like CF with such wide readership, not silenced because you feel insulted or happen to disagree. Whatever side you happen to fall, it's probably safe to say that anyone honest & knowledgeable about the risk inherent in this particular passage would have to conclude -- at a minimum -- that it's "debatable." Some conclude that the condition of the boat & expertise of at least one of the crew renders it acceptable, others do not. Try not to take such otherwise informed opinions so personally.
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Old 22-11-2019, 11:16   #479
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Re: La Vagabonde's crossing

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the kids were much older,and they nearly died a few times

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosie_Swale-Pope
Remember to soak your beans !
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Old 22-11-2019, 11:17   #480
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Re: La Vagabonde's crossing

Routing for a minute . . . . in a nice wind field right now, but we have a different challenge looking forward the next week - light air

I ran three routings to a high (42N), medium (40N) and low(= Lisbon) waypoints (in line with the Azores). Sometimes when you do this you get three quite different routes and you can choose trade-off between speed and safety. But sometimes, as in this case, all three routes are pushed to essentially the same thing. . . . looking like this

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So why are these routes collapsed into the same things . . . because of high-pressure ridge with light air filling in to the south - this was forecast and I mentioned it several days ago as a reason to keep chugging northerly a bit.

Here is tomorrow - you can see the route just skating along above the lighter air (red X marks boat position at time of this weather)

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And the 24th, they need to try to keep up speed because light air is below and behind them

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