GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

[Mr B]

Just because they have a nice shiny document in their Manicured Pinkys, It doesnt mean they know Much about any thing,

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

IN my view training to ICC level should be mandatory for any trip in reduced visibility or out of teh sight of land. There are simply too many boaters out there, that havent a clue,

Training to ICC level?
What is that?
I got my ICC after signing a declaration that I could sail...

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by nigel1

Not really sure how this incident would be categorised, maybe something along the lines of ignoring the real world while head is buried in a computer screen.
This last Saturday, I was towing a jack up rig from one of the North Sea oil fields. The plan was to arrive off the harbour at 1800 which was the top of the tide and slack water.
As we were towing, it was required to have a pilot on my tug, and a pilot on the rig. In addition, two small tugs were made fast to each quarter of the rig.
Pilots boarded at 1445. First thing out pilot does is to set up his laptop chart plotter (our two 27" ECDIS Displays obviously not good enough), and once that is done, he's on his mobile phone. Call finishes and he makes some remarks about me using a paper chart, something to the effect that its a bit old fashioned. Can see we are off to a good start here.
Then another protracted call on his mobile, after which I asked him to do what he was paid for and not use the time on the phone.
He then asks for full power, and also for the two harbour tugs to swing around and assist in the towing. I then voice my concern that by doing this, we'll arrive way to early, he reckons we can slow down later, me, I cant see the point.
Anyway, I'd been on the bridge for 6 hours, the mate turns up at 1550, and after telling him to keep a good eye on the pilot, I shoot down to the cabin for a quick shower. No sooner begun, than the phone goes, and it the mate expressing concern at the pilot. Throw on shorts, grab tee shirt and on the bridge in about 30 seconds. Immediately I see us, the tow, and the other tugs all setting down towards a stbd hand buoy. The pilot is glued to his lap top screen. I holler out to him we are going to land on the buoy, he says his plot looks like we will clear it.
At this point, I basically terminated his engagement, jump into the driving seat, and go hard over to port, and the same time on the VHF to the port quarter tug to come around to stbd and pull like buggery, and for the stbd quarter tug to put the brakes on and try and stem the flood tide.
We miss the buoy, unfortunately, it catches the rig on her stbd quarter and gets hooked up on an anchor rack.
At this point, I'm trying to get the rig back into mid channel and moving astern, this should allow the buoy to fall clear. Both pilots then insist we just continue with the buoy fouled on the rig. I'm now really gobsmacked, fortunately the barge master backs me up. and a couple of minutes later, the buoy is clear.
When all the crap settles down, I then find out whats happened.
Another ship was coming up astern of us and overtaking. Despite there being plenty of sea room, the pilot took the tow over to the extreme stbd side of the channel and slowed down to about a knot through the water, and this was with a knot of flood tide on our port quarter.
What really got me, that when I came on the bridge, within a couple of seconds, I could immediately see that we were being set out of the channel, all you needed to do was line up the buoy with something on the shore, and it was obvious, but for some reason, the "pilot" dis-regarded that one sense which makes it all clear, and instead spends his time staring at a chart plotter screen. Maybe a case of a rabbit in the headlights.

Wow!!

By the way, most plotters will show projected COG which is extremely useful in understanding set and drift - you see instantly where you're being set.

The problem using it to clear buoys is that buoys are never exactly where they are shown on the chart. Naturally - they move around.

That a professional mariner, nay, PILOT, could do such a thing beggars belief.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

Training to ICC level?
What is that?
I got my ICC after signing a declaration that I could sail...

You must of had another qualification the. The ICC requires and on waters assessment.

Dave

[Captain Bill]

Originally Posted by boatman61

You can lead the horse to water.. but you can't make em drink..

When this happens it's usually because you've been working with the wrong end of the horse.

[RaymondR]

Like it or not folks the GPS system is quiet probably going to end up being the sole method of navigation practicably available in the future. My recollection of the pre GPS days is that pretty well every chandlery had a copy of the Nautical Almanac on the shelf and I don't think I have set eyes on one for years. Can't see it being a problem if we end up with multiple satellite systems and GPS's which can access them and are cheap enough to allow sufficient redundancy aboard the vessel.

[jackdale]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

You must of had another qualification the. The ICC requires and on waters assessment.

Dave

That was my response as well.

Although I do think that anyone who ventures into fog, goes out at night had better have much more training / experience than an ICC. Out of sight of land - maybe. Here we can get 50 miles and still see land.

[RaymondR]

Is the AIS system just thee thin edge of the wedge and will it lead to mandatory AIS connected to mandatory autopilots and a collision avoidance scheme like commercial aviation has?

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

You must of had another qualification the. The ICC requires and on waters assessment.

I've got an ICC (the card does refer to UN resolution 40), and no, there was no on water assessment. There is no official body in Belgium that does such a thing.
I did sit a theory exam 25 years ago. It was then (and still is) entirely optional. Came with a big fancy certificate that I lost in a fire later, and that they couldn't replace.My declaration that I had passed this exam, and my declaration that I knew how to sail was accepted. It's not valid for inland waters though.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

I've got an ICC (the card does refer to UN resolution 40), and no, there was no on water assessment. There is no official body in Belgium that does such a thing.
I did sit a theory exam 25 years ago. It was then (and still is) entirely optional. Came with a big fancy certificate that I lost in a fire later, and that they couldn't replace.My declaration that I had passed this exam, and my declaration that I knew how to sail was accepted. It's not valid for inland waters though.

To my knowledge today no country issues an ICC without an assessment, unless the user has a higher level certificate. When it was introduced some countries implementations left a litre to be desired. But most of that has been cleared up.

Dave

[nigel1]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Wow!!

By the way, most plotters will show projected COG which is extremely useful in understanding set and drift - you see instantly where you're being set.

The problem using it to clear buoys is that buoys are never exactly where they are shown on the chart. Naturally - they move around.

That a professional mariner, nay, PILOT, could do such a thing beggars belief.

The other problem is that we were moving so slowly, that projected COG is all over the place
Still, we made it OK in the end

Oil rig GSF Monarch arrives at Esbjerg Port towed by Maersk Tackler - Esbjerg Havn - Olie & Gas relateret - Esbjerg Havn - VIDEOKLIP ARKIV - .Arkivbilleder fra Medvind Fotografi

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

I've got an ICC (the card does refer to UN resolution 40), and no, there was no on water assessment. There is no official body in Belgium that does such a thing.
I did sit a theory exam 25 years ago. It was then (and still is) entirely optional. Came with a big fancy certificate that I lost in a fire later, and that they couldn't replace.My declaration that I had passed this exam, and my declaration that I knew how to sail was accepted. It's not valid for inland waters though.

Belgium is not a signatory to resolution 40 and hence neither issues or recognises ICCs so you can't get one in Belgium and of fact without mis representing yourself can not get one at all, until recently as the UK and Ireland were given permission to exam and issues ICCs to non signatory countries and the US.

Here the requirements

"
II. Requirements
1. For the issue of an international certificate the applicant must
(a) have reached the age of 16,
(b) be physically and mentally fit to operate a pleasure craft, and in particular,
must have sufficient powers of vision and hearing,
(c) have successfully passed an examination to prove the necessary competence for pleasure craft operation.
2. The applicant has to prove in an examination
(a) sufficient knowledge of the regulations concerning pleasure craft operation and nautical and technical knowledge required for safe navigation on inland waters and/or coastal waters and
(b) the ability to apply this knowledge in practice.
3. This examination shall be held with regard to the zones of navigation (i.e. inland waters and/or coastal waters) and must include at least the following specific subjects:
3.1 Sufficient knowledge of the relevant regulations and nautical publications:
Traffic regulations applicable on inland waters, in particular CEVNI (European Code for Inland Waterways), and/or in coastal waters, in particular the Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea, including aids to navigation (marking and buoyage of waterways),
3.2 Ability to apply the nautical and technical knowledge in practice:
(a) General knowledge of craft, use and carriage of safety equipment and serviceability of the engine/sails,
(b) Operating the craft and understanding the influence of wind, current, interaction and limited keel clearance,
(c) Conduct during meeting and overtaking other vessels, (d) Anchoring and mooring under all conditions,
(e) Manoeuvring in locks and ports,
(f) General knowledge of weather conditions,
(g) General knowledge of navigation, in particular establishing a position and
deciding a safe course.
(e) Manoeuvring in locks and ports,
(f) General knowledge of weather conditions,
(g) General knowledge of navigation, in particular establishing a position and
deciding a safe course.
3.3 Conduct under special circumstances:

Principles of accident prevention (e.g. man over board manoeuvre),
Action in case of collisions, engine failure and running aground, including a sealing of a leak, assistance in cases of emergency,
Use of lifesaving devices and equipment,
Fire prevention and fire fighting,
Avoiding water pollution.


Note point 2. And with relevance to this thread point 3.2 (g)

Dave

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Belgium is not a signatory to resolution 40 and hence neither issues or recognises ICCs so you can't get one in Belgium and of fact without mis representing yourself can not get one at all, until recently as the UK and Ireland were given permission to exam and issues ICCs to non signatory countries and the US.

If you can't get an ICC in Belgium, how did I then get one? Belgium did sign resolution 40 btw, but was indeed late...

That the implementation left somewhat too be desired is to be expected. When Belgium introduced driving licenses somewhere in the 60ies they gave one to anyone over 18 who just asked for one...

Belgium at present doesn't have any form of official practical examination for sailors.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

If you can't get an ICC in Belgium, how did I then get one? Belgium did sign resolution 40 btw, but was indeed late...

That the implementation left somewhat too be desired is to be expected. When Belgium introduced driving licenses somewhere in the 60ies they gave one to anyone over 18 who just asked for one...

Belgium at present doesn't have any form of official practical examination for sailors.

The ICC is not an official examination. I was merely making the point that as a mandatory cert , the ICC would be a good starting place and would require an onwater assessment as for example the RYA require for ICC.

Dave

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

If you can't get an ICC in Belgium, how did I then get one? Belgium did sign resolution 40 btw, but was indeed late...

That the implementation left somewhat too be desired is to be expected. When Belgium introduced driving licenses somewhere in the 60ies they gave one to anyone over 18 who just asked for one...

Belgium at present doesn't have any form of official practical examination for sailors.

Sorry yes it signed it in may 30 2011. The royal decree gives the acceptable methods of examination or equivalent certificate

Dave