Computer for navigation

[BuenaOnda]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

I do however still think that it is too expensive to be widely adopted.
(again, even if I agree that the price might be fair and reasonable for such a device)

At sub 500 euros you might have more possibilities to convince people.

Bon chance.

Thanks ;-)

Yes, regarding the price, 500€ was my first target. But it was not possible to reach it with a device gathering the most important specs I wanted. However the early buyers during the crowdfunding campaign will benefit of a price not so far from that.
Moreover, you know so as me that no more than 20% of the clients of e-shops pay the full price. You pay it when you're in a hurry, when you need the device absolutely and immediately. But in this case, I'm pretty sure that ppl will think about the acquisition for a long time and be able to wait for sales (black Friday, end of year sales, etc.).
For my part, I know that my favorite shipchandler gives a 20% discount about 3 times a year (early in the season, in the middle of the summer and end of year). So, I prepare my list of stuff needed for the new season in the winter and wait for it. And usually this gives me the opportunity to enjoy a free delivery too

So, let's see. As already said, the crowdfunding campaign is a good way to benchmark this project. And, in fact, I'm not sure I would have launched it just relying on e-shop sales (mainly because I would have sold it one-by-one, but be obliged to build a stock before that, incurring big expenses for it).

Have a nice week. And stay safe!

JM, SailProof

NB: don't hesitate to follow us by subscribing to our newsletter: https://sailproof.shop/2020/04/21/ru...e-information/

[BuenaOnda]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

I understand your intention. You are in the right place. This forum is popular with sailors, cruisers and also with gadget collectors.

The niche, even if you include us all (mission impossible, e.g. sailors buy only very basic tools) is still very very shallow. You will likely concentrate on gadget collectors as these people form the biggest group and also seem to spend most $$ shopping for more toys.

Mind that this specific sub-group is very very savvy. So you will have potential clients who are darn willing to check you against whatever alternatives are available from Shenzen Alibaba stores. This is truly a very very tough competition.

I have just discovered last week you can get an AirX knockoff there at USD125. Local price of the same thing with a an AirX sticker is about USD800.

You set yourself a tough project. Good luck and let us know when the device is available for purchase.

Cheers,
b.

Thanks Barnakiel,

you're right, it's a tough competition. Meanwhile, I noted that many sailors, perhaps more in France, which is more conservative in some ways than the US, are afraid of shops like Aliexpress (in addition, the average age of sailors is pretty high). Afraid to pay and not to receive the device or receive a bad quality or damaged good. And also, for sure, not to have a real warranty (European consumers are used and attached to their 2 years warranty) and an after-sale service.

In addition to the fact that, even there are plenty of rugged tablets on Aliexpress, you can't find the same specs as my device, I hope that my "niche" will be sufficient to reach my goals. So, let's see, I'll keep you updated.

In between, stay safe!

JM, SailProof

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by BuenaOnda

NB: don't hesitate to follow us by subscribing to our newsletter: https://sailproof.shop/2020/04/21/ru...e-information/

https://sailproof.shop/newsletter/

Merci Jean-Michel, subscribed.

[BuenaOnda]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

https://sailproof.shop/newsletter/

Merci Jean-Michel, subscribed.

Great!

Thanks, mate

[BuenaOnda]

Hi everyone!

Kickstarter just validated the project, so I'm almost ready to launch, it will be for this week. If you want to be among the firsts to be alerted, just subscribe on the Kickstarter page here:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...-rugged-tablet

Thanks again for your help!

JM, SailProof

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by BuenaOnda

Hi Guys!

I'm preparing a crowdfunding campaign to launch a rugged tablet dedicated to sailors. So, I’d like to have your advice.

When I bought my first sailboat, I tried to find, so as you, a good quality waterproof tablet, with a (really) sunlight readable screen, a long life battery (more than one day of sailing) and an accurate GPS. As it was almost impossible to find in the leisure area, I searched for professionals products. I'm sometimes working with Chinese suppliers, mainly in HK and Shenzhen (the Mecca of electronics). So I met suppliers and came back with different samples that I tested during the 3 last years.

I discussed with different suppliers to create a tablet which would be dedicated to sailors, and affordable for non-professionals. We mainly upgraded the screen, battery and GPS chip. Now I’m in the fine tuning phase of the tablet. The specs would be as follow:

- Rugged waterproof tablet
- Android 10 (GMS certified)
- 8inch screen – 800 cd/m2 – Wet & Glove touch – Gorilla Glass 3rd generation
- CPU: MTK octacore 64 bits MT-6771, 2.0 Ghz
- 4GB RAM + 64GB ROM
- Camera : rear 13m px autofocus, front 5m px fixed focus
- Battery: Li-ion 9800 mah
- WIFI 802.11 (a/b/g/n/ac) 2.4 + 5.8Ghz
- Bluetooth 4.0 (BLE)
- GPS chip: UBlox-M8n – GNSS: GPS + GLONASS + Galileo
- 3G/4G
- MicroSD card port
- SIMcard port
- Ports: USB-C (OTG+charge), USB 3.0 (so a « big » USB like PCs), Mini HDMI, DC jack, POGO pin
- Charge: USB or DC jack (a dock with continuous charging will be available later)
- Headphone: 3.5mm jack
- Operating temperature: -10 ~50°c (storage temperature -30 ~70°c)
- Size: 227*142.5*22.9 mm
- Weight: 750 g
- IP67 certified
- MIL-STD-810G certified. Droptest: 1,2m

To give you a benchmark, a Samsung Galaxy Tab A has a 450 cd/m2 screen, which is not really sunlight readable and battery has a 6000 mah capacity.

So, what do you think about these specs? What could you suggest as improvements? What seems important for you in a tablet dedicated to sailors?
And, if you have more questions or details, I’m here to answer… In between, stay safe!

JM

I'm a little late to this conversation, sorry, but, and this is just my opinion, I don't see much of a market for a "do everything, high end, rugged 8" tablet".

Particularly one without a truly daylight viewable screen, which your 800 cd/m2 is not.

I have gone through some of the same searches and investigations which you seem to have done, and I did buy an 8" rugged tablet with somewhat downscaled specs from yours, two years ago. I paid $175 for it. It works great except for one thing: The 1200nit screen is not enough.

Our use case is on-deck on a racing sailboat. We have a navigator dedicated to navigation and tactics and he uses the tablet exclusively. But the screen is impossible except for the largest (HUGE) type fonts. We also use the tablet in cruising mode simply as a navigation aid. In that case it is possible to view it under the spray hood, where the screen is readable, but not totally convenient for us.

Yes, we appreciate all the high end features but they really don't matter to us. Just give me an e-Ink screen that can download and run apps from google and I'll buy one, otherwise I'll keep watching China until somebody there puts one on the market which is completely Android compatible.

[BuenaOnda]

Originally Posted by wingssail

I'm a little late to this conversation, sorry, but, and this is just my opinion, I don't see much of a market for a "do everything, high end, rugged 8" tablet".

Particularly one without a truly daylight viewable screen, which your 800 cd/m2 is not.

I have gone through some of the same searches and investigations which you seem to have done, and I did buy an 8" rugged tablet with somewhat downscaled specs from yours, two years ago. I paid $175 for it. It works great except for one thing: The 1200nit screen is not enough.

Our use case is on-deck on a racing sailboat. We have a navigator dedicated to navigation and tactics and he uses the tablet exclusively. But the screen is impossible except for the largest (HUGE) type fonts. We also use the tablet in cruising mode simply as a navigation aid. In that case it is possible to view it under the spray hood, where the screen is readable, but not totally convenient for us.

Yes, we appreciate all the high end features but they really don't matter to us. Just give me an e-Ink screen that can download and run apps from google and I'll buy one, otherwise I'll keep watching China until somebody there puts one on the market which is completely Android compatible.

Hello!
I think you must be mistaken. I have checked or tested about all the 7 and 8in rugged tablet from Chinese factories in the 3 last years (I have 8 or 9 different samples here), and for sure never seen an android tablet with a 1200 cd/m2 screen, even for 3 time this price. Did you test the screen?

Moreover, the great majority of the chartplotters on the market have screen between 800 and 1200 cd/m2.

JM

[DeValency]

JM - as a serial tech (mostly medical electronics) entrepreneur, investor and sailor since I was 11, currently running two ventures in the software and biotech industries, a guest lecturer at business schools, I can definitely agree it would be nice (or even great) device to have on board.

Unfortunately, you will not be able to maintain the common tablets market’s competition and total hardware upgrades every 12-18 months even if you trust the funky Android os.

Apple iPad section was not doing that great after the first two years of launching, simply because the tablets were too reliable and upgrades didn’t add much value to existing customers. Now they boost it again with hardware set that is 100 times more powerful, tons of aftermarket accessories and performance of MacPro all bundled with the best OS available.

Did you want to compete against it and Samsung?

To design and manufacture a dream marine tablet you will need $30-40M to start with even before getting to the marketing costs and even if you aim at the military and police/emergency markets (hint; they are already using at least 10 different devices, including Panasonic).

The recreational sailing community alone will never create a market justifying even 5% of the real investment required, even if you can bring it to the market at max $500 (or Euros or Pounds...) - even in this retail price, you end up with less than 50% gross revenue = meaning a net loss of hundreds or more per device sold. And that’s before the minimum two years warranty that you hope to get with a Chinese knock off hardware?... They can build amazing hardware and they do, but only if the client/designer/QA/OS is Apple/Microsoft/Sony/Samsung/LG and alike.

But as they say: “Good luck”! ��
All I want is to save your butt - for free!...

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by BuenaOnda

Hello!
I think you must be mistaken. I have checked or tested about all the 7 and 8in rugged tablet from Chinese factories in the 3 last years (I have 8 or 9 different samples here), and for sure never seen an android tablet with a 1200 cd/m2 screen, even for 3 time this price. Did you test the screen?

Moreover, the great majority of the chartplotters on the market have screen between 800 and 1200 cd/m2.

JM

Oh, You're right, it's spec'd at 1000nit, and it is 7". I have not tested it except by usage. It is not adequate for our needs due to the screen. Otherwise it is fine. I actually see value in how a device works more than comparing specs.

So what about e-Ink?

[BuenaOnda]

Originally Posted by DeValency

JM - as a serial tech (mostly medical electronics) entrepreneur, investor and sailor since I was 11, currently running two ventures in the software and biotech industries, a guest lecturer at business schools, I can definitely agree it would be nice (or even great) device to have on board.

Unfortunately, you will not be able to maintain the common tablets market’s competition and total hardware upgrades every 12-18 months even if you trust the funky Android os.

Apple iPad section was not doing that great after the first two years of launching, simply because the tablets were too reliable and upgrades didn’t add much value to existing customers. Now they boost it again with hardware set that is 100 times more powerful, tons of aftermarket accessories and performance of MacPro all bundled with the best OS available.

Did you want to compete against it and Samsung?

To design and manufacture a dream marine tablet you will need $30-40M to start with even before getting to the marketing costs and even if you aim at the military and police/emergency markets (hint; they are already using at least 10 different devices, including Panasonic).

The recreational sailing community alone will never create a market justifying even 5% of the real investment required, even if you can bring it to the market at max $500 (or Euros or Pounds...) - even in this retail price, you end up with less than 50% gross revenue = meaning a net loss of hundreds or more per device sold. And that’s before the minimum two years warranty that you hope to get with a Chinese knock off hardware?... They can build amazing hardware and they do, but only if the client/designer/QA/OS is Apple/Microsoft/Sony/Samsung/LG and alike.

But as they say: “Good luck”! ��
All I want is to save your butt - for free!...

Thanks for your message and your help to save my butt ;-)
For sure I don't want to compete with Apple or Samsung. But our paths are very different. Mine was the one of a user searching a solution. I found it. Almost... And I also discovered that it was possible to replicate the device I had in hand, with the improvements I needed (screen, battery, GPS), in small quantities. I found a very professional supplier who is working mainly for B2B clients, and so can offer a good quality product even for a 100 pcs order. I chose proven solutions, not exotic ones. Because I think that sailors want a simple and reliable device. It also means - and it's right for every electronic device - that you need to be a bit disciplined with that kind of device. I used during 3 years, until last year, an Android 4.42 tablet with an old CPU and just 2+32G RAM which was working (and still is) very well with Navionics and Sailgrib, the main apps I use. Never had one problem.

Development is done, I'm ready to launch the crowdfunding campaign now, and the device will match the specs announced. I'm not here to sell 100,000 tablets every year; and even not here to become rich selling tablets to sailors. I have other businesses and I'm eating well every day, no worries. And I'll continue to...

So, let's see in one month, when the crowdfunding campaign will close, if I have convinced a sufficient number of sailors.

JM

[DeValency]

Great! If priced at up to $500, working with iOS (I want it to integrate perfectly with all my other iOS devices), I will be your first client.

Deal?

Originally Posted by BuenaOnda

Thanks for your message and your help to save my butt ;-)
For sure I don't want to compete with Apple or Samsung. But our paths are very different. Mine was the one of a user searching a solution. I found it. Almost... And I also discovered that it was possible to replicate the device I had in hand, with the improvements I needed (screen, battery, GPS), in small quantities. I found a very professional supplier who is working mainly for B2B clients, and so can offer a good quality product even for a 100 pcs order. I chose proven solutions, not exotic ones. Because I think that sailors want a simple and reliable device. It also means - and it's right for every electronic device - that you need to be a bit disciplined with that kind of device. I used during 3 years, until last year, an Android 4.42 tablet with an old CPU and just 2+32G RAM which was working (and still is) very well with Navionics and Sailgrib, the main apps I use. Never had one problem.

Development is done, I'm ready to launch the crowdfunding campaign now, and the device will match the specs announced. I'm not here to sell 100,000 tablets every year; and even not here to become rich selling tablets to sailors. I have other businesses and I'm eating well every day, no worries. And I'll continue to...

So, let's see in one month, when the crowdfunding campaign will close, if I have convinced a sufficient number of sailors.

JM

[BuenaOnda]

Originally Posted by DeValency

Great! If priced at up to $500, working with iOS (I want it to integrate perfectly with all my other iOS devices), I will be your first client.

Deal?

haha!
For the price, it's not impossible. The official price, tax included, will be around 700 €, but the crowdfunding campaign will give the opportunity fro the early buyers to buy it for 525 €.
Regarding iOS, it will be more difficult. But do you really know Android? I have worked during the 25 last years in the design sector, so I'm an aficionado of Apple. But I think that many Apple lovers put Android on trial without knowing it. I have a Macbook. I have an iPad (my second. Because the first, an iPad 1, was obsolete after only 2 years, when iOS 7 appeared; you see what I mean...) and I have much more problem with my iPad than my Android tablet and phones.
If you use it well (securely), yo won't have any problem with an Android device.

So, try Android and come back to me, I'll keep a discounted tablet for you ;-)

JM

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by BuenaOnda

haha!
For the price, it's not impossible. The official price, tax included, will be around 700 €, but the crowdfunding campaign will give the opportunity fro the early buyers to buy it for 525 €.
Regarding iOS, it will be more difficult. But do you really know Android? I have worked during the 25 last years in the design sector, so I'm an aficionado of Apple. But I think that many Apple lovers put Android on trial without knowing it. I have a Macbook. I have an iPad (my second. Because the first, an iPad 1, was obsolete after only 2 years, when iOS 7 appeared; you see what I mean...) and I have much more problem with my iPad than my Android tablet and phones.
If you use it well (securely), yo won't have any problem with an Android device.

So, try Android and come back to me, I'll keep a discounted tablet for you ;-)

JM

You seem to have overlooked his most important criteria: Easy and thorough integration and compatibility with other devices already in use.

[BuenaOnda]

Originally Posted by wingssail

You seem to have overlooked his most important criteria: Easy and thorough integration and compatibility with other devices already in use.

you're right, but I was not really trying to convince you.

[AKA-None]

You want to see a great design that is durable and can be seen in direct sunlight then go to laptop.org
Other than the lower resolution it does much of what you want for a small device. There’s a lot of excellent engineering there