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Old 24-04-2020, 04:23   #181
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Re: Computer for navigation

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmh2002 View Post
. . . * Also, wouldn't the Samsung Galaxy Active Pro be a better comparison?
https://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_gal...e_pro-9850.php
10in, IP68, MIL-STD-810G, 7600 mAh battery, about 600 euros.

Looking quickly through your specs:

- I think 8in might be too small, 10in is probably the minimum
(based on personal experience, and other discussions in this forum about screen size, and this also probably assumes that the boat will still have another larger display down below as the primary navigation device)

- 4GB RAM seems a bit low for future proofing

- 9800 mAh battery looks great!

Interesting...

What is your ballpark price range?
(just to give some idea for comparison)



Tab Active Pro has 550 nits, which is better than the 400 nits of my Tab Active, but none of these specs is truly daylight visible. A real chart plotter has 1200 nits or more. Is it even worth trying to get to true daylight visible for this application? It's pretty challenging to drive a screen at that brightness level off a battery.



I don't find it a problem to use my Tab Active under the sprayhood, where the brightness is sufficient.


I love my Tab Active which is more or less perfect for this application, but it has one weakness -- no way to connect a charger in a waterproof way. That's something the OP might want to think about. I use mine mostly with Navico GoFree to control my B&G Zeus at the helm.


8" is too small in my experience to run and effectively control OpenCPN. For that I think you would want at least 10" and 1080p and even then you need awfully good eyes and delicate fingers. No way you're going to control O with gloves on.
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Old 24-04-2020, 05:30   #182
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Re: Computer for navigation

Quote:
Originally Posted by BuenaOnda View Post
Thanks for your long reply!

We are still discussing...
Thanks for the transparent answers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Tab Active Pro has 550 nits, which is better than the 400 nits of my Tab Active, but none of these specs is truly daylight visible. A real chart plotter has 1200 nits or more. Is it even worth trying to get to true daylight visible for this application?
Yes I was really focusing on the rugged aspect of the Tab Active Pro as a comparison.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
I love my Tab Active which is more or less perfect for this application, but it has one weakness -- no way to connect a charger in a waterproof way. That's something the OP might want to think about. I use mine mostly with Navico GoFree to control my B&G Zeus at the helm.
Agreed. Although this may be mitigated somewhat if it truly has all day battery life it's certainly a useful feature to note.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
8" is too small in my experience to run and effectively control OpenCPN. For that I think you would want at least 10" and 1080p and even then you need awfully good eyes and delicate fingers. No way you're going to control O with gloves on.
Yes, this has been my personal experience too and it's also the consensus across countless threads here so it's why I mentioned it.

Although I do appreciate the point of going for 8in to try and keep the price down.

BUT, for a lot of buyers, I don't think 700 Euros + 8in hits that price point unfortunately (even if it might be realistic and fair for such a device).

* The more serious buyers (eg: I would put @dockhead in this category) who may be willing to spend 700 euros will I suspect say 8in is TOO SMALL - and voila, it's exactly what @dockhead said as well.

* The less serious buyers (eg: the smaller boats, the more budget orientated), who may be willing to accept the 8in screen size will I suspect say that 700 euros is TOO MUCH.

Sorry to rain on your parade a little, but I think this is a pretty realistic summary regardless of all of the other details about the device.

I'm happy to be corrected though.

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Old 24-04-2020, 05:44   #183
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Re: Computer for navigation

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmh2002 View Post
. . . BUT, for a lot of buyers, I don't think 700 Euros + 8in hits that price point unfortunately (even if it might be realistic and fair for such a device).

* The more serious buyers (eg: I would put @dockhead in this category) who may be willing to spend 700 euros will I suspect say 8in is TOO SMALL - and voila, it's exactly what @dockhead said as well.

* The less serious buyers (eg: the smaller boats, the more budget orientated), who may be willing to accept the 8in screen size will I suspect say that 700 euros is TOO MUCH.

Sorry to rain on your parade a little, but I think this is a pretty realistic summary regardless of all of the other details about the device.

I'm happy to be corrected though.

I guess it depends on what you want it for.


My sense is that a lot of people are using tablets INSTEAD of regular plotters, in order to save money. This is probably not going to appeal to such people, as you can get a decent 7" plotter for €700 on sale. Such people use tablets they have anyway, mostly, so the marginal cost is 0.



Regular fixed-installed plotters have a few really huge advantages over tablet solutions so I don't really like the idea of using any kind of tablet INSTEAD of a regular marine plotter, but some disagree.


For people who already have a regular plotter and want a tablet as a supplement, like me, then 8" might be enough. It's good enough for Go Free and 8" is a handy size. I earlier used a 10" Sony Xperia tablet, and it was better, but much less handy, and too fragile (I broke it).



My big issue however is CHARGING. It doesn't matter if you have an "all day battery", if you are on a multiday passage. I use my tablet mostly under the spray hood when it's too cold or rainy to stand behind the helm. I charge with a power bank, but the connection is not waterproof, so I just can't use the table in really bad weather, although the tablet itself is very waterproof.
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Old 24-04-2020, 05:55   #184
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Re: Computer for navigation

^^^ All good points.

Yup, the all day battery only works for passages if it's not the primary device and is only being used periodically and then being put back on charge.

Day sailing may be a different situation (but then the price question again).

On that subject, I don't think I saw wireless charging in the specs. That would help.

In various threads here links have been posted to some more serious grade wireless charging base cradles, so that should be part of the consideration too (or maybe an optional extra from your company?).

"- Charge: USB or DC jack (a dock with continuous charging will be available later)"

As @dockhead asked, will this dock provide waterproof charging?

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Old 24-04-2020, 08:01   #185
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Re: Computer for navigation

Thanks for all your interesting comments and no worries for "raining on my parade a little", it's exactly why I'm here.

In fact, there are as many kind of sailors as ports on the seven seas... It's pretty sure that @Dockhead, perhaps sailing in family on his Moody, has different needs than me, single-handed sailing on my old First 26.

Yes chartplotters have some huge advantages. But tablets have also huge advantages. So, as @Dockhead sail "it depends on what you want it for".
For my part, I can't sail without a routing app and I don't want to have a plotter or a PC + a tablet. I want to be able to download the gribs, what I can't do with a 700€ chartplotter (I don't talk about the price of charts updates which are 3 to 5 times more expensive with a plotter). And, in fact, I don't even know where I could put a fixed plotter on my boat

I'm absolutely not blaming your choices and preferences, but, seeing the numerous discussions I have had in the last weeks and months, I know there's a niche for this kind of tablet. I would say that, from these discussions, about 25% of the participants were considering a 10in screen as mandatory. So i'm focusing now on the other 75%. But I won't forget the other 25%, don't worry...
(NB: on the other hand, I discussed with some "nomad" skippers who said "I don't want bigger than 8in because I want to be able to put it in my pocket". I'm sure it seems amazing for you, but that's so... ).

For the moment I have decided to focus on some "niche" that I have identified during these discussions and the crowdfunding campaign gives the opportunity to test this market. If I see that I won't reach my goal, I'll be able to make some corrections and start again. But, seeing my previous discussions, I'm pretty sure I have already convinced the target audience. And for sure, I hope that this first step will give me the opportunity to develop variants of my tablet to reach other audiences (perhaps these 25%: a 10in tablet is already in a corner of my mind...).

Thanks again for all your comments which are helping me so much.

JM, SailProof
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Old 24-04-2020, 08:34   #186
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Re: Computer for navigation

For your case. You have definitely reach the right conclusion.

As posted earlier, even with a new Raymarine Axiom MFD, Radar NMEA2K backbone etc etc on a bigger boat, my main navigation device is the iPad mounted in the cockpit under the dodger/sprayhood and if necessary, the iPhone in my pocket.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BuenaOnda View Post
Thanks for all your interesting comments and no worries for "raining on my parade a little", it's exactly why I'm here.

In fact, there are as many kind of sailors as ports on the seven seas... It's pretty sure that @Dockhead, perhaps sailing in family on his Moody, has different needs than me, single-handed sailing on my old First 26.

Yes chartplotters have some huge advantages. But tablets have also huge advantages. So, as @Dockhead sail "it depends on what you want it for".
For my part, I can't sail without a routing app and I don't want to have a plotter or a PC + a tablet. I want to be able to download the gribs, what I can't do with a 700€ chartplotter (I don't talk about the price of charts updates which are 3 to 5 times more expensive with a plotter). And, in fact, I don't even know where I could put a fixed plotter on my boat

I'm absolutely not blaming your choices and preferences, but, seeing the numerous discussions I have had in the last weeks and months, I know there's a niche for this kind of tablet. I would say that, from these discussions, about 25% of the participants were considering a 10in screen as mandatory. So i'm focusing now on the other 75%. But I won't forget the other 25%, don't worry...
(NB: on the other hand, I discussed with some "nomad" skippers who said "I don't want bigger than 8in because I want to be able to put it in my pocket". I'm sure it seems amazing for you, but that's so... ).

For the moment I have decided to focus on some "niche" that I have identified during these discussions and the crowdfunding campaign gives the opportunity to test this market. If I see that I won't reach my goal, I'll be able to make some corrections and start again. But, seeing my previous discussions, I'm pretty sure I have already convinced the target audience. And for sure, I hope that this first step will give me the opportunity to develop variants of my tablet to reach other audiences (perhaps these 25%: a 10in tablet is already in a corner of my mind...).

Thanks again for all your comments which are helping me so much.

JM, SailProof
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Old 24-04-2020, 12:13   #187
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Re: Computer for navigation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Tab Active Pro has 550 nits, which is better than the 400 nits of my Tab Active, but none of these specs is truly daylight visible. A real chart plotter has 1200 nits or more. Is it even worth trying to get to true daylight visible for this application? It's pretty challenging to drive a screen at that brightness level off a battery.



I don't find it a problem to use my Tab Active under the sprayhood, where the brightness is sufficient.


I love my Tab Active which is more or less perfect for this application, but it has one weakness -- no way to connect a charger in a waterproof way. That's something the OP might want to think about. I use mine mostly with Navico GoFree to control my B&G Zeus at the helm.


8" is too small in my experience to run and effectively control OpenCPN. For that I think you would want at least 10" and 1080p and even then you need awfully good eyes and delicate fingers. No way you're going to control O with gloves on.


I think eventually Eink display might resolve the brightness issue with less power. I once was going to setup a. Ok with android and VNC off a pie. What to much time to reconfigure the laptop.
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Old 24-04-2020, 12:19   #188
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Re: Computer for navigation

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Originally Posted by jmh2002 View Post
Much as I like RPi for some purposes your RPi comparisons are getting tiresome...

Again you are not comparing apples with apples. The RPi is in NO WAY comparable with a Toughbook.

Please add the weight and bulk of all the required peripherals and cables (including a screen) AND make them all water resistant, before making any comparison...

I don't think you can.

Whilst the Toughbook might be nominally portable, I don't think anyone is suggesting to carry it around like a mobile phone, so the weight and bulk is of much less relevance.

Onboard I'm guessing most people will use it in a couple of locations. Plugged in, at the Nav Station, and up in the Cockpit / Pilothouse / under the Dodger when entering a port, harbour, or passing through a tricky navigational area.

I really think people just troll and post crap in this forum because they have nothing better to do.

Most of this crap can be quickly shot down with some common sense logic by people who have actually been cruising and understand how the tools and toys will be used on an everyday practical basis.



I conformal sprayed both my pi and mat boards for pretty cheap. They are so cheap you can afford a couple backups.
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Old 24-04-2020, 14:09   #189
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Re: Computer for navigation

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Originally Posted by BuenaOnda View Post
Hi Guys!

- Android 10 (GMS certified)
- 8inch screen – 800 cd/m2 – Wet & Glove touch – Gorilla Glass 3rd generation
- CPU: MTK octacore 64 bits MT-6771, 2.0 Ghz
- 4GB RAM + 64GB ROM
- Camera : rear 13m px autofocus, front 5m px fixed focus
- Battery: Li-ion 9800 mah
- WIFI 802.11 (a/b/g/n/ac) 2.4 + 5.8Ghz
- Bluetooth 4.0 (BLE)
- GPS chip: UBlox-M8n – GNSS: GPS + GLONASS + Galileo
- 3G/4G
- MicroSD card port
- SIMcard port
- Ports: USB-C (OTG+charge), USB 3.0 (so a « big » USB like PCs), Mini HDMI, DC jack, POGO pin
- Charge: USB or DC jack (a dock with continuous charging will be available later)
- Headphone: 3.5mm jack
- Operating temperature: -10 ~50°c (storage temperature -30 ~70°c)
- Size: 227*142.5*22.9 mm
- Weight: 750 g
- IP67 certified
- MIL-STD-810G certified. Droptest: 1,2m

JM
Hi,

My opinion:

- Camera : rear 13m px autofocus, front 5m px fixed focus

in a nav oriented tablet ? why? hipster? Gen Z?

- GPS chip: UBlox-M8n – GNSS: GPS + GLONASS + Galileo

as long as it is one of the accurate chips you are fine, you omitted Beidou which is operational and included Galileo which is still unstable, stick with Beidou imho

- 3G/4G

in a nav oriented tablet ? why? hipster? Gen Z? insta? whatsapp gen?

- SIMcard port

it is a nav tab you are you now talking your nex smartphone?

- Ports: USB-C (OTG+charge), USB 3.0 (so a « big » USB like PCs), Mini HDMI, DC jack, POGO pin

??? why hdmi? why dc jack if usb is the charge?

- Charge: USB or DC jack (a dock with continuous charging will be available later)

just usb charge will be fine imho

- Weight: 750 g

that's a brick, I am not buying one,

- MIL-STD-810G certified. Droptest: 1,2m

it is for civil use or for the military?

You WILL find it expensive to build a 750 g device with a 1.2 drop test. You will end up with 350g in hardware and 400g in drop proofing. Bet?

Unless you churn out huge numbers, you will not beat existing brands. And you will not churn out huge numbers because few people need such a device.

Good luck. Mine is just one data point.

PS You do not need octacore recent chips to drive stuff like OpenCPN etc. My 8 years old Acer tablet with a single core chip plays all nav apps fluently. If you go octacore, you will be shooting flies with a canon.

Cheers,
b.
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Old 24-04-2020, 23:56   #190
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Re: Computer for navigation

my 2 cent as a Samsung Galaxy Tab Active2 user
1. I love my Sammy, had an Ipad earlier but was too chunky and locked up when heated up by the sun.
2. wireless charging ! Have enhanced my Sammy by a magnet gadget cable - helps at least to protect the USB-c a bit.
3. daylight reading is ok but a "Kindle like" e-paper display should be the way to go. Refreshrate is not really the issue - color is.
4. Others said 8" is too small for OCPN - it works fine on the Sammy when used with the pen, - what disturbs more ist that, when you are used to OCPN on PC the Android version has a castrated GUI.
5. one more comment on size: a small device disappears easily in the pocket or can be strapped to the arm, a larger one has to be significantly better protected as it ends up laying around.
Good luck with your project !
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Old 25-04-2020, 11:05   #191
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Re: Computer for navigation

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Originally Posted by aeronautic1 View Post
One more reason why I like the Toughbook; it is easy to find a retired military computer for sale that has a 20 channel military grade GPS sensor installed internally. No need for USB external sensor.
USB GPS dongles are dirt cheap.

$10 backup shipped

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vk-172-USB-...UAAOSwRNhbz-uq
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Old 25-04-2020, 11:50   #192
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Re: Computer for navigation

As has been said, this is a niche market and the volumes will be small. It is hard to make a business case vs. a standard iPad, Android pad or even a Windows tablet.

I believe the water proofing requirement is exaggerated. These devices can live happily under the dodger. I think for now, the best solution is to have a cheap plotter with basic functions (charts, gps, navigation) that drives the boat and all other functions such as weather, communication, SSB, planning, etc. to be hundred by a tablet/phone/Pi, whatever makes you happy.

If the sun is shining you typically look out not at the display. If the weather is bad and you need to look at radar, etc. then typically it is not shining. If you want to have an integrated tablet that serves as a chartplotter you need to do sonar and radar and that is becoming hard and niche. May be one day but not anytime soon.
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Old 26-04-2020, 05:51   #193
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Re: Computer for navigation

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
Hi,

My opinion:

- Camera : rear 13m px autofocus, front 5m px fixed focus

in a nav oriented tablet ? why? hipster? Gen Z?
.
Hi Barnakiel,

thanks for your complete comments. Here are my answers.

Regarding camera, chip, etc.: when you develop a new product, you chose the standard specs for the most common options. An as this tablet is made to last many years, it's better to have good specs that will be the minimum needed in 4 or 5 years.
So, this is true for some comments your made. Not only the camera. Moreover, it won't be much more cheaper to go down on CPU, ROM, camera, etc.

Quote:
- GPS chip: UBlox-M8n – GNSS: GPS + GLONASS + Galileo

as long as it is one of the accurate chips you are fine, you omitted Beidou which is operational and included Galileo which is still unstable, stick with Beidou imho .
Yes, but the chip manage a maximum of 3 positioning system. Knowing that the public version (don't forget that it's a Chinese military project) of Beidou basically has a 10 meter accuracy and public version of Galileo is the most precise, under 1 meter, I chose Galileo. Perhaps in the next 18 months, it will not surpass GPS + Glonass + Beidou, but then we are sure it will be the best solution.

Quote:
- 3G/4G

in a nav oriented tablet ? why? hipster? Gen Z? insta? whatsapp gen?

- SIMcard port

it is a nav tab you are you now talking your nex smartphone?
Why 3G/4G and SIMcard? Because with that you may check weather, update gribs files for routing, send message with your anchor alarm. So you're autonomous. Ok, it's perhaps not interesting for everybody, but I'm pretty sure there are many sailors like me, going from anchorage to anchorage where you can't find WIFI but only 3G networks. And also sailors who used routing apps to manage tides, currents and wind to choose their route and timing.

Quote:
- Ports: USB-C (OTG+charge), USB 3.0 (so a « big » USB like PCs), Mini HDMI, DC jack, POGO pin

??? why hdmi? why dc jack if usb is the charge?

- Charge: USB or DC jack (a dock with continuous charging will be available later)

just usb charge will be fine imho
To be honest, we chose to use an existing housing instead of developing a new one, because the mold and other costs where expensive and demanded a minium of 500 to 1,000 pieces for a first order. So, the ports where available.
DC jack is interesting for the dock. Moreover, you have an usb-c left available when the tablet is on the dock, if needed. USB 3.0 could be interesting to add an usb memory key, a hard drive or other accessories (why not an AIS USB Dongle?). So, we are open for future development. And HDMI could be used to add a bigger screen at the chart table (preparing a long route with apps like OpenCPN in the previous evening could be more confortable there).

Quote:
- Weight: 750 g

that's a brick, I am not buying one,

- MIL-STD-810G certified. Droptest: 1,2m

it is for civil use or for the military?


You WILL find it expensive to build a 750 g device with a 1.2 drop test. You will end up with 350g in hardware and 400g in drop proofing. Bet?

Unless you churn out huge numbers, you will not beat existing brands. And you will not churn out huge numbers because few people need such a device.
Ok, 750 g is not light, but Samsung Galaxy tab and iPad are between 500 and 650 gr. Difference is not so big. You add to that a waterproof case and we are not so far...
Regarding MIL-STD-810G certified: sorry, that's just the universal certification for drop proofing. So we can compare apples with apples and not pears (as we say in French. Same in English?).
Thus, drop proofing test is just there to prove it will last much more than a non rugged tablet when used in bad conditions (so, perhaps a day sailor doesn't need it, but, as already said, there are so many different types of sailors...).

Beating existing brands? Which one offer the same product for the same budget (knowing that we will be under 700€)?
Moreover, the crowdfunding campaign is the good way to test the market. If we are wrong, we will be able to make some adjustments and come back to the market. It will not cost anything to the potential buyers, just time for us). But seeing only the people who subscribed to our newsfeed after posting our projects in only 3 forums, we are optimistic

Anyway, I'm here to gather informations and try to define more accurately the different niches, so all your comments are a good contribution to the debate. And perhaps in the future we will develop alternative versions, thanks to your inputs.

Have a nice Sunday!

JM, SailProof
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Old 26-04-2020, 09:03   #194
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Re: Computer for navigation

Quote:
Originally Posted by BuenaOnda View Post

(...)

Anyway, I'm here to gather informations and try to define more accurately the different niches, so all your comments are a good contribution to the debate. And perhaps in the future we will develop alternative versions, thanks to your inputs.

Have a nice Sunday!

JM, SailProof
I understand your intention. You are in the right place. This forum is popular with sailors, cruisers and also with gadget collectors.

The niche, even if you include us all (mission impossible, e.g. sailors buy only very basic tools) is still very very shallow. You will likely concentrate on gadget collectors as these people form the biggest group and also seem to spend most $$ shopping for more toys.

Mind that this specific sub-group is very very savvy. So you will have potential clients who are darn willing to check you against whatever alternatives are available from Shenzen Alibaba stores. This is truly a very very tough competition.

I have just discovered last week you can get an AirX knockoff there at USD125. Local price of the same thing with a an AirX sticker is about USD800.

You set yourself a tough project. Good luck and let us know when the device is available for purchase.

Cheers,
b.
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Old 27-04-2020, 00:56   #195
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Re: Computer for navigation

Quote:
Originally Posted by BuenaOnda View Post
Hi Barnakiel,
Why 3G/4G and SIMcard? Because with that you may check weather, update gribs files for routing, send message with your anchor alarm. So you're autonomous. Ok, it's perhaps not interesting for everybody, but I'm pretty sure there are many sailors like me, going from anchorage to anchorage where you can't find WIFI but only 3G networks. And also sailors who used routing apps to manage tides, currents and wind to choose their route and timing.

JM, SailProof
This I agree with, and I don't think @barnakiel was totally fair ridiculing you with the "why? hipster? Gen Z? insta? whatsapp gen?" question.

Nowhere was it suggested that this be used for Instagram, Facebook, WhatsApp, etc. People normally have their own personal devices for this.

If I had this device I would probably turn off the 3G/4G and GPS and connect it to the boat's network because this saves a lot of battery power.

But if I'm paying anything more than around 200 euros I would still want this feature included so that I have options, and backup capability.

Sometimes also with remote cruising this option can be helpful.

Finally for smaller boats, or daysailing, this feature is probably essential since it maybe used as the primary navigation device onboard.

I do however still think that it is too expensive to be widely adopted.
(again, even if I agree that the price might be fair and reasonable for such a device)

At sub 500 euros you might have more possibilities to convince people.

Bon chance.

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