Are paper charts as a backup still necessary?

[conachair]

Originally Posted by thomm225

It's even more of a pain using a large fold out chart in the cockpit cruising along at 5 knots plus heeled over 20-25 degrees slightly off course and trying to avoid running aground (depth finder showing 2' under the keel) while at the same time switching back and forth from your distance glasses to your reading glasses to see the chart properly

Not the greatest passage plan dry in a ziplok bag you're trying to keep to then...

Or does nobody do passage plans anymore...

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

To actually do what you’ve described in this day in age of readily available cheap navigational devices, would be extremely foolish, especially while using 30 year old charts as you’ve previously described.

Download a cheap app onto your smartphone along with a local chart for under $50 and be safe, both for yourself and the others around you.

Of course it's not foolish!

If I had run aground, I'd get the boat off.

It (almost running aground) just added a bit of excitement to my trip home from Mobjack Bay about a month ago. I was trying to cheat to the South East and "sneak" over some low water but had to come back up a bit. My heading needed to be around 160/170 plus or so after I cleared the bay depending on how far I sailed out. Tide was up and I thought I might be able to clear it and save some time. I had come out of the Severn River and was just staying in water deep enough for my draft plus adding in 2-3' for the tide being up to what the old chart said. And I was watching the water for tell tale signs of low water

I was over near the Eastern Most Island there in the Guinea Marshes when I started heading back up. I came up and East a bit and rounded Green marker number 5 to be safe and since I didn't feel like putting my reading glasses back on again. I did head down after that and was able to clear that other low water area to the South due to the tide being up. See chart

Chart 12238

As far as a smartphone, my company provides me with a flip phone so that's what I use. I'm definitely not going to pay for a smartphone when I already have a phone..Plus I like doing it the old fashion way.

I did major in History!

[contrail]

All of this discussion begs the question of how many of the "no paper charts" crowd has ever actually had to put their theoretical back up plan to use. As some have noted, and I would add myself to that group, it is neither as easy nor as calming as is often optimistically explained by those who have not actually had to deal with this. I remember doing a mere 60 mile passage ending at Dana Point, in California, in pea soup fog, when all positioning devices were out. It was an intense exercise in DR, and without charts, I would have been in the soup, as well. I was certainly prepared to spend the night at sea and stand off, but the goal was to bring myself to a point a half mile South of the marina and about a quarter of a mile off, and work my way in, using chart, compass, depth sounder, calibrated knot meter and binoculars, where possible. Systems are better now, and I have more of them, but that memory, and others, are very clear.


It also occurs to me to wonder if the "no chart" crowd set their chartplotters on North uo, heading up, or course up? It's nothing but a guess, but my guess is that what they don't do, is set them for North up. It may be generational, it may be from using GPS in cars (NOT north up), or using a chartplotter for both charting and radar (usually, but not always heading up). But what I have definitely noticed is that these folks have little understanding of the logic or North up, nor do they have particularly good big picture positional awareness. Things are simply "to the right", "at 3 o'clock" or whatever, but there may be little understanding of where things actually are, particularly at a distance. They often cannot tell you where a frequent destination in their car, actually is. Generally, the more professional the navigator, the more I see navigation being done "North up".



I am also hazarding a guess that the same "no charts" crowd usually plot courses and bearings in Magnetic, rather than True, whereas the reverse is true with more professional navigators who actually plot positions on charts.



It would be an interesting study!

[Van Der Beek]

Originally Posted by Paul L

One of life's biggest rip offs is that after a lightning strike magnetic compasses are often wildly off.

I don’t have any statistics and have only been hit by a lightning strike once and the compass worked just fine afterwards, that said, an analog compass is far more likely to be in working order.

Although not a common scenario, should you ever have a electronic failure or malfunction of any kind a magnetic compass will still work.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Van Der Beek

I don’t have any statistics and have only been hit by a lightning strike once and the compass worked just fine afterwards, that said, an analog compass is far more likely to be in working order.

Although not a common scenario, should you ever have a electronic failure or malfunction of any kind a magnetic compass will still work.

The problem is you will not know if the mag compass was effected or not. Many are easily 20 or 40 degs off from the remagnetizing of the lightning pulse.
This error is well documented in aircraft.

[GrowleyMonster]

Originally Posted by Van Der Beek

I don’t have any statistics and have only been hit by a lightning strike once and the compass worked just fine afterwards, that said, an analog compass is far more likely to be in working order.

Although not a common scenario, should you ever have a electronic failure or malfunction of any kind a magnetic compass will still work.

Not necessarily. Millions of jillions of volts can do funny things to a magnet, not to mention the iron and magnets used to adjust the compass and any other bits of iron and steel large enough or near enough to affect the compass heading. If you know how to take an azimuth or at least an amplitude you can do a quick check but if there is more than a couple degrees change, you will need to swing the compass and create a new deviation table. Then, as part of the induced magnetism change wears off, you will have to do another. Unless of course you simply don't care where your compass points because you just follow the little arrow on the screen, anyway.


For a NAVIGATOR, not an insurmountable problem. Most screenwatchers are not even close to being navigators. Hope that doesn't sound elitist or anything but if I can jar even one screenwatcher into learning the basics of navigation then I will have incrementally improved safety at sea and one vessel's chances of always making an accurate landfall. I think I am batting roughly 000 so far.

[Van Der Beek]

@GrowleyMonster

There is nothing elitist about learning how to navigate and / or push for it's importance, you build from the ground up.

It's like driving a car, first you learn how to drive a manual, then if you want to get lazy you can go for an automatic. Difficult to do it the other way around.

Hope the analogy made sense.

[dfelsent]

My Dad’s boat was hit by lightning while under way. Solo. Near St Augustine Florida. Electronics gone including alternators. Paper charts let him navigate to his destination.

I learned to navigate in the 1970s. Dead reckoning. In Maine. New Brunswick. And Newfoundland. Etc. Plenty of current and fog. The skills I acquired have stood the test of time. I am a techie. I use and value modern electronic tools. I use charts for planning. Log keeping.
And backup.

Speed can be estimated and measured without electronics. Depth too. My dad taught me how. It was fun to learn to use a chip log and cast a lead.

I’ve been in fog and had instruments crap out. Not fun but it will happen.

Paper charts ? Yes.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by conachair

Not the greatest passage plan dry in a ziplok bag you're trying to keep to then...

Or does nobody do passage plans anymore...

My "passage" on this day was maybe 35 miles.

I started out before Sunrise and had a nice SW Wind (maybe 17 knots) and I was headed SE (after I got out of the Severn River and Mobjack Bay) from the NW and the tide was about to start going out which was the direction I was headed.

That was the Passage Plan and I made it back in about 6 hours

The rest I'd figure out on the way. I did spend a lot of time watching the sun clear the horizon though and was setting my panels for some much needed power as I was at 11.8 volts with just the autopilot and depth on

When I got to 3' under the keel I turned on the GPS

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Paul L

The problem is you will not know if the mag compass was effected or not. Many are easily 20 or 40 degs off from the remagnetizing of the lightning pulse.
This error is well documented in aircraft.

I would think you could find that out by comparing your compass to the North Star if you are in the Northern Hemisphere. Knowing about what the declination is where you are would help also to "recalibrate" your compass.

To find due east you can use the lower star in Orion's Belt as it rises if you cannot find the North Star or if it's cloudy up there

And there may be other ways to find good reference points in this book.

If I remember correctly, he said the Polynesians used the wave direction and steered at the same angle to the waves as long as the prevailing winds held

https://www.amazon.com/Barefoot-Navi.../dp/1574092324

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by thomm225

I would think you could find that out by comparing your compass to the North Star if you are in the Northern Hemisphere. Knowing about what the declination is where you are would help also to "recalibrate" your compass.

.....

There are certainly ways to get a rough feel for the compass while offshore. Since you just got hit by lightning, it might be a long time before you have a clear sky to see any stars. Even a compass that points reasonably close to N might be way off on other points of the compass. The important take away is that after a lightning strike where you loose electronics you also need to be suspect of any magnetic compasses.

[undercutter]

I have all the paper large scale charts for Australia from Darwin to Hobart if anyone wants to buy them cheap as we will be departing Oz from Cairns in mid Nov. Ironically, they are all still in the original tube and have never been touched by human hands since they were shipped to me.


The handheld GPS which would be lightning proof inside the nav table with the charts was our backup plan but obviously was never required.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by undercutter

I have all the paper large scale charts for Australia from Darwin to Hobart if anyone wants to buy them cheap as we will be departing Oz from Cairns in mid Nov. Ironically, they are all still in the original tube and have never been touched by human hands since they were shipped to me.


The handheld GPS which would be lightning proof inside the nav table with the charts was our backup plan but obviously was never required.

Sent a PM

[Sea Wolf]

Absolutely! Have been cruising on and off for more than 30 years. Wouldn’t even THINK about making any kind of ‘voyage’ without them. It’s a fact of cruising that electrical/electronic systems will fail at some point. In addition, take a sextant and know how to use it. Imagine being hit by lightening when you’re well off shore. We log our lat/long every 2 hours in our log... so we always have an approximation of our location. If lightening struck, we’d mark our chart and go from there, with everything

[xxuxx]

I strongly Gree with Sea Wolf. I keep a separate hand held garmin along with my paper charts to as to be used as a back up. Plotting your position on paper is not a bad thing. Take it one step further and learn how to use a sextant. Then you will be a fully capable navigator.
Captain Christine: available for safe deliveries anywhere