Are paper charts as a backup still necessary?

[billknny]

Originally Posted by Nicholson58

We have Simrad chart plotter and backup IPAD with Navionics. There are also a couple of other devices with ASI that display lat-long. We never travel without paper as well. I suggest you look for the chart books for the regions you plan to sail. They take way less space and lie flat. The books are typically 18 X 24 and cover large areas with many close in details for ports. NV chart books for the Caribbean. Several options for the US. I prefer Maptec. Often you can get a discount at boat shows or make a good find on Amazon.

That is all good as far as it goes, and it is always better to be prepared than not. But if my sailing was confined to the US I would not worry (much) about having a paper back up. How far can I be from help by radio, cellphone or VHF? I know, there is always the exception, but ALMOST always I'd be within reach of help. That is not where I sail most, however.

I need paper back up for approaching a remote coast new to me without lights and no Coast Guard radio service, no cell phone or internet. Maybe no other visible boats. Doing that without electrics--if my only navigational tools were electric--would not be possible.

[Mr B]

I had a huge collection of full size paper charts from the PO of my boat,
All got drowned when I hit the beach and got full of water,
Other than looking at them from time to time I never used any of them,
Most were dated from Captain Cook and the second world war,
None had modern dates on them, And most were the latest paper maps available,
They were quite expensive as well,
I had my C maps on my Garmin GPS, Which were quite accurate, If it said a rock was there, It was there,
Except near Bundaberg, The GPS had me sailing along the beach, Half a mile to my left, But Eyeballs were in play there, Hahahaha
I also had a set of maps on my Laptop, Which were very accurate,
I relied mainly on my depth sounder in waters close to shore and sailing thru reefs,

North, South, East and West are on the Compass, Which is not any where near any thing else and is not electrical,
Sun and Moon will tell you which way is which also,
As for knowing precisely where I am, Is not relevant, Close enough is good enough, Within 25 miles is good enough for me, I only travel about 150 miles a day, So I have a very good idea on where I am,
Except when I am close to shore.
Then the GPS and eyeballs come into play, and the depth sounder,
I use the motor in shallow water, Reverse is a very good way of not running aground, Done that a few times, Near misses, And going slowly,
Will I be buying new paper charts, Nope,
I dont find them necessary,

Cheers, Brian,

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by roland stockham

You have 2 choices = backup full paper or EDICS - that means not just duel chart readers but full duel system from charger to devices. In the event of a lightening strike you may still have no charting. For me the questions is not paper charts or not but how many. And I do have a fully independent second nav device using a solar powered tablet.

OpenCPN is ECDIS compliant.


But if you're trying to fulfill the requirements with paper charts -- do you keep your paper charts up to date, noting on them every Notice to Mariners? I didn't think so.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by billknny

Dockhead,

How and where do you get "updated and legal" electronic copies of raster charts for countries other than the USA? I have always found that a challenge...

Bill

So, for UK, French Atlantic Coasts, Belgium, Netherlands, Spain, Portugal:


Free charts, tide tables and pilotage : from Visit My Harbour




These are the complete set of rasterized Admiralty charts, every one of them, right up to date, and officially "For Navigation", for less than £100 a year. Brilliant, and a local Cowes business.



OSenc charts for Iceland, Faroe Islands, Greenland, Denmark, Sweden -- most of the old Viking waters https://o-charts.org/shop/index.php?...gory&id_lang=4


Finland & Sweden: Svenska Solsidan


The Baltic: https://us.nvcharts.com/, but expensive.




Does that answer your question? And CM93 makes an excellent, detailed basemap, but NOT "For Navigation".

[unbusted67]

Originally Posted by Dsanduril

I'm hard pressed to envision a scenario where all get killed (at least one where I care afterwards

.....

Hahaha This is too funny.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

This is an interesting question which will get a variety of different opinions.


In my opinion, chart plotters (and I-Pads) are NOT suitable at all for navigation. We've discussed the reasons in detail elsewhere, but you can't get a big picture without loss of detail, so you just can't do serious chart work, on such devices.


Like some who've posted here, I love paper charts for proper chartwork, but at a certain point it gets to be really hard, and maybe impossible, to carry enough paper charts to cover a wide cruising area. I have paper charts stuffed under every bunk on my boat, but I gave up years ago trying to have paper for the 10 or so countries' waters I sail through every year. The problems are space to store them, cost, and what is neglected by everyone I know that tries to rely on paper charts -- UPDATING them, without which you're not legal or responsible.


So I use a large high def monitor and OpenCPN, with updated and legal raster charts, on a 12v computer mounted in a protected out of the way location, with multiple backups of the hardware and the software.


I have out of date paper charts for many of the places I sail, which I use for some kind of planning tasks, and as a kind of backup, but in general, I don't think the risk of losing the ability to read an electronic chart, is greater than the risk with paper charts. Paper charts blow away or get spoiled by water.


Chart work on OpenCPN is not as good as with paper, but it's pretty good on a large monitor. But what's really nice is that you can keep 1000 charts instantly at your fingers, and keep them updated. Storage and updating of electronic charts is absolutely brilliant.

Does this mean I’ve been successfully navigating all over the world over the past eight years in a “unsuitable” manner using only an iPad?

[billknny]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Does that answer your question? And CM93 makes an excellent, detailed basemap, but NOT "For Navigation".

While it DOES answer my question (Thank you!), it is also no help (to me!), because none of those areas are my cruising grounds.

Oh well...

Other than being a total PITA (to me!) to use, the difficulty in getting up to date chart data for the rest of the world is what keeps me away from using OpenCPN.

[billknny]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

OpenCPN is ECDIS compliant.

What does that mean--exactly "ECDIS compliant"? Having an option to show ECDIS symbology is not even remotely close to being "ECDIS compliant".

If OpenCPN was actually ECDIS compliant, then I could legally use it as the sole navigation system on run my 10,000 ton tanker? I kinda doubt it...

[scottgledhill]

Anything connected to a battery will ultimately fail. This is seldom at a convenient moment. And yes I have been aboard when a bad regulator blew all the electronics.

[piloto]

There is no such thing as IMHO as, when you have one, it’s not. Paper charts are a good landscape for electronics as backup and primary. A EMP event would, by definition (if done correctly), take out transmitters and receivers (I think, therefore I have an opinion- what was that? Opinions are like.....)

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Does this mean I’ve been successfully navigating all over the world over the past eight years in a “unsuitable” manner using only an iPad?

I think you said you have paper, right?


You can do pilotage just fine with an IPad, just like you can with a chart plotter (provided you're out of the rain and direct sunlight). But not actual navigation. A lot of cruisers, maybe most, just don't do navigation. Just set a waypoint and go.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by billknny

What does that mean--exactly "ECDIS compliant"? Having an option to show ECDIS symbology is not even remotely close to being "ECDIS compliant".

If OpenCPN was actually ECDIS compliant, then I could legally use it as the sole navigation system on run my 10,000 ton tanker? I kinda doubt it...

In addition to the software, you need ECDIS compliant hardware, and compliant cartography, in order to run your 10,000 ton tanker. You can read about the standards here: http://www.imo.org/en/OurWork/Safety...cretariat).pdf


I don't know if anyone actually uses O on a tanker, but I do know one 5,000 tonne expedition vessel which runs primarily on OpenCPN.



It is a fabulously powerful system. OpenCPN does require some skill to use properly, however -- It is not an Apple product.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by billknny

While it DOES answer my question (Thank you!), it is also no help (to me!), because none of those areas are my cruising grounds.

Oh well...

Other than being a total PITA (to me!) to use, the difficulty in getting up to date chart data for the rest of the world is what keeps me away from using OpenCPN.

Well, I was just giving you my own cruising areas. OpenCPN can use just about any kind of cartography, including S63 and S57 vector charts used by ships (but I prefer raster for navigation). Here is a guide to cartography sources:



https://opencpn.org/OpenCPN/info/chartsource.html


Official raster and S57 vector charts for all U.S. waters are available for free from NOAA.



Where do you cruise? I don't think you should find any problems getting cartography for OpenCPN.




You can even make your own, as I did for Greenland, where there is no decent cartography (NE coast). Ge2Kap will make a chart usable by OpenCPN using Google Earth imagery, incredibly useful for uncharted or poorly charted areas.

[MartinR]

OpenCPN is actually lacking some of the required ECDIS functionality, for example off-track alarms for each route segment, automatic route checking. Also to be ECDIS compliant the software/hardware combination needs to be approved by a classification society. Including every plugin. Which would mean, that it would take maybe 3 years or for updates to become valid.

But it is a nice and powerful nav system, albeit with a less than optimal user interface. This in common with most professional ECDIS systems.

[seadago]

IMO no, they are not. But it's a matter of personal preference. I don't carry them not only because they are expensive, take valuable space of other things, but also because I don't have a large nav table to spread them on. Nice to be able to see the big picture on paper, but large scale charts are no better than a small tablet screen if you have to keep them folded. The above said, I have lots of redundancy. A dedicated chartplotter/radar at the cockpit, a backup tablet I can take to the cockpit (in a waterproof bag), and a Panasonic Toughbook below deck. Tablet and toughbook running OCPN. Have backups of all electronic charts, and every devise has its independent GPS antenna. Do all my passage planing on the toughbook, and export the plan to the plotter when done.