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10-08-2021, 14:12
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#2
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: North Charleston, SC
Boat: Camano Troll
Posts: 5,178
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Re: AIS Spoofing becoming a problem
Can't read the story.
__________________
Ron
HIGH COTTON
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10-08-2021, 14:36
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#3
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2021
Location: Flagler County, FL, USA, Earth
Boat: Lagoon 380
Posts: 1,551
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Re: AIS Spoofing becoming a problem
The US mil uses disguise lighting. It wouldn't surprise me to learn some AIS spoofing is going on as well.
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10-08-2021, 14:50
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#4
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 488
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Re: AIS Spoofing becoming a problem
It will happen and there isn’t anything anyone can do about it. Falls under the umbrella of ATFP and OPSEC. It’s the same reason we weren’t required to broadcast ADS-B when we flew...and the few mil aircraft that did, often changed/spoofed their IDs.
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10-08-2021, 15:27
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#5
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Nearly an old salt
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Lefkas Marina ,Greece
Boat: Bavaria 36
Posts: 22,784
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AIS Spoofing becoming a problem
AIS was and is primarily intended as a close range collision avoidance. Clearly local spoofing isn’t easily done as the ship is actually there
Spoofing the SAT AIS really is fair hame . SAT Ais was never designed as an object of ais. Might make AIS return to its original aims
__________________
Interested in smart boat technology, networking and all things tech
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10-08-2021, 16:12
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#6
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Boat: Swarbrick S-80
Posts: 1,061
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Re: AIS Spoofing becoming a problem
Wasn’t this the plot of a James Bond move some years ago?
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11-08-2021, 10:20
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#7
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Philadelphia
Boat: Hinckley 59
Posts: 148
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Re: AIS Spoofing becoming a problem
More on this topic:
https://www.theregister.com/2021/06/..._ais_spoofing/
Spy stuff for sure.
So its becoming more likely that an AIS identified vessel may be mislabeled or even not there at all.
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11-08-2021, 10:31
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#8
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 465
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Re: AIS Spoofing becoming a problem
Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow
AIS was and is primarily intended as a close range collision avoidance. Clearly local spoofing isn’t easily done as the ship is actually there
Spoofing the SAT AIS really is fair hame . SAT Ais was never designed as an object of ais. Might make AIS return to its original aims
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AIS was designed as "automatic identification system" , to allow target identification on the radar. It is not a stand alone collision avoidance which some people like to utilize.
Spoofing the AIS is simple-it is simply a VHF signal. Inaccurate input leads to inaccurate output. Using marinetraffic or any other trackers is simply introducing the signal to the tower with the incorrect gps location.
GPS spoofing is becoming more prevalent and preferred over gps blocking. And that is the big concern to be aware is happening.
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11-08-2021, 11:02
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#9
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Oriental, NC
Boat: Baba 40
Posts: 547
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Re: AIS Spoofing becoming a problem
Let’s not lose track of the fact AIS is a tool, albeit an incredibly useful one, like any others we use (GPS, charts, plotters, etc.). Spoofed locations are no better or worse than running without it, and we’re first obligated to maintain a responsible watch. We all know “that guy” who never looks up from his electronics and id suddenly surprised to see something quite unexpected. Let’s not be that person…
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11-08-2021, 11:18
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#10
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: New York, New York
Boat: Dufour Safari 27'
Posts: 1,937
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Re: AIS Spoofing becoming a problem
This is nothing new and many countries do this. Additionally, since SatNav signals are very week, it is not hard for any individual to do the same. A number of years ago the UK Ministry of Defence put out a notice to mariners that GPS signals may not be available or may indicate false locations.
SailShabby hit the nail on the head. It is just a tool, but one that has to be taken with a grain of salt. Interestingly, there is a growing interest in eLORAN. These sort of issues may eventually bring it back. Time will tell.
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11-08-2021, 11:42
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#11
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Petersburg, AK
Boat: Outremer 50S
Posts: 4,229
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Re: AIS Spoofing becoming a problem
Quote:
Originally Posted by caffel
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Exactly, and at this point unlikely to include direct reception of the VHF signals from the real ship in question a few miles away. When those get jammed I would get concerned. Jamming of the real VHF signals when in close range is more of a concern to me than a duplicate of the ship showing up somewhere.
If there are spurious VHF broadcasts that duplicate a real ship somewhere that the ship is not, but I am, well, I'll try to avoid those just as a I would the real ship, and if I can't ever see the ship (proper watchkeeping after all) then I chalk it up to strange technical gremlins.
If the spoofing only shows up at the internet/base station AIS traffic level then I really don't care, don't use that for any day-to-day navigation/operation.
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11-08-2021, 11:48
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#12
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,915
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Re: AIS Spoofing becoming a problem
I can't see why a recreational boater cares. The only people fooling around with this stuff are the military - and a guy in a 40ft sailboat going 6 knots isn't going to accidentally run into a destroyer (and assuming you are not spoofing your AIS, they won't run into you either)
And if you find you've blundered into a war zone, you won't be able to continue your pleasure cruise anyways. It's a war! The CG will order you into the nearest port with guns drawn - just as all planes were told to land immediately after 9/11.
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11-08-2021, 12:27
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#13
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: New York, New York
Boat: Dufour Safari 27'
Posts: 1,937
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Re: AIS Spoofing becoming a problem
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarlF
I can't see why a recreational boater cares. The only people fooling around with this stuff are the military - and a guy in a 40ft sailboat going 6 knots isn't going to accidentally run into a destroyer (and assuming you are not spoofing your AIS, they won't run into you either)
And if you find you've blundered into a war zone, you won't be able to continue your pleasure cruise anyways. It's a war! The CG will order you into the nearest port with guns drawn - just as all planes were told to land immediately after 9/11.
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Carl, there are many reasons why a recreational boater might care. First, it is far more than the military who use AIS, and while the military might be the majority of those who spoof their location or the location of others, they are not the only ones who do it.
Second, I am not sure where you are located, however there are many areas that are quite congested. This has many implications for safety. Spoofing AIS is just one aspect of this. Spoofing GPS signals is another. When nations and individuals are spoofing SatNav signals, and the resultant coordinates, it creates safety issues.
Keep in mind that many people use AIS as a safety and navigation tool. On many large ships, crew sizes have been reduced with an increased reliance on automation. AIS and SatNav are a major part of this. Additionally, there are a number of experiments with autonomous vessels now, and these absolutely rely upon AIS and SatNav signals.
Third, don't assume that just because you are only running at six or eight knots doesn't mean that you won't run into a large vessel. Things happen far more quickly than people realize and I wish I had a dollar for every accident report I have read where one or both of those involved said they thought they would have plenty of room.
Fourth, there are plenty of us who sail near areas that have restrictions of various sorts. When the players are spoofing AIS, they can use that to create incidents, even with individuals. Never underestimate the desire of a state to use an individual as a pawn or to make an example of. The list of contested areas/troublesome areas, etc. is far more extensive than one would think. Remember what William Blum said; "No matter how paranoid or conspiracy minded you are, what the government is actuay doing is worse than you imagine"
While I agree with you that many boaters, at least today, won't have an issue with this, it is important that people understand what is happening.
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11-08-2021, 14:05
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#14
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Nearly an old salt
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Lefkas Marina ,Greece
Boat: Bavaria 36
Posts: 22,784
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Re: AIS Spoofing becoming a problem
Quote:
Originally Posted by boat driver
AIS was designed as "automatic identification system" , to allow target identification on the radar. It is not a stand alone collision avoidance which some people like to utilize.
Spoofing the AIS is simple-it is simply a VHF signal. Inaccurate input leads to inaccurate output. Using marinetraffic or any other trackers is simply introducing the signal to the tower with the incorrect gps location.
GPS spoofing is becoming more prevalent and preferred over gps blocking. And that is the big concern to be aware is happening.
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The display of AIS targets on radar came much later after AIS
"The early years
In its early years its primary use was as a ship-to-ship anti-collision system for use in poor visibility and at night, in support of radar and conventional watch keeping. Over time the amount of information that could be transmitted in the VHF signal grew and its usefulness increased. In 2002 it finally went global when the IMO in its landmark SOLAS convention mandated that all passenger ships and other commercial vessels over 300 GT should carry Class-A AIS transceivers. At the time this affected around 100,000 ships, but since then use has expanded as the unit cost of transceivers has fallen and both compulsory and voluntary adoption has increased"
It was introduced as an anti collision system , which is why class A came with a presentation iterface
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Interested in smart boat technology, networking and all things tech
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11-08-2021, 14:11
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#15
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Nearly an old salt
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Lefkas Marina ,Greece
Boat: Bavaria 36
Posts: 22,784
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Re: AIS Spoofing becoming a problem
firstly GPS spoofing is actually difficult. especially off ship , you can spoof your own GPS , but why ?
secondly recreational boaters are not that concerned and in my experience military boats arnt transmitting AIS anyway
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