Aground at Elbow Cay

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Southern Star

It seems to me that the following incorrect criticisms have been levelled at these unfortunate fellow cruisers based upon pure speculation:

1.They should have had paper charts in case their electronics failed. Turns out they did.
2. They should have usd DR once the electronics failed. Again, turns out they did.
3. They should have left sufficient sea room/stayed offshore overnight until things settled down. It turns out that they attempted to claw off shore for a few days. If three days sea room is always insufficient, what is enough?
4. They made a poor choice comcerning their departure window. Actually, the weather when they left Puerto Rico was (and was forecast to be) generally very benign for several days, even in the Turks and Caicos and the Abacos. How far in advance do you rely upon forecasts? Keep in mind that in the last few days, Chris Parker has noted how this year the various forecast models are failing to coincide in a dramatic way.
5. They chose the wrong boat i.e., Westsails are not very good to windward. This one may be true, but they are sturdy boats that have circumnavigated countless times and are available to those, including I expect these fellow cruisers, who do not have the financial means to afford more. Maybe that was their biggest mistake - they didn’t have enough money to afford a better boat with better gear, communications equipment and more redundancy.

Brad

Nicely put, and it looks like I'm also guilty of making incorrect assumptions with regard to your #4, namely their forecasted weather window. As for #5 and their boat's seaworthiness, all that I recall is some damage suffered at the dock in PR from a previous hurricane that involved a cap rail & maybe part of the hull to deck joint. Someone speculated this could have caused leaking & the loss of electrical power but that is another unknown. And certainly losing one's engine is not that unusual in the type of sustained rough conditions they described. As for their foregoing epirbs, HF radio, sat phone, chartplotters(?), etc., it wouldn't be my personal choice but there are far too many more accomplished & experienced sailors than me who get along successfully without.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by goat

Yup, meant to do that. Careened the boat to scrub the bottom. Nothing else to see here, move along.

That's what I usually say....err, I mean, would say, if this happened to me.

goat

Or more aptly meant to do it once they knew they were screwed and out of any better options. Perhaps only meant to try & land somewhere near Hopetown, the rest may have been luck since it was nighttime and there's no good way to navigate through those reefs other than by eyeball. I'm sure there are posters on here who remember having to aim for the "pink house" when approaching the Bimini cut. Last time for me was 2010 with a chartplotter, Explorer charts, and temporary markers someone had put out. Nothing seemed to line up so waited for a sportfish to come by so I could follow his wake in. This is why boatpoker & others tried to explain some of the navigational challenges that are rather unique to the Bahamas.

[Cherod]

Originally Posted by Exile

I agree with all of this, rognvald, with the exception of your prior post claiming that earlgrey was treated unfairly. In hindsight it looks pretty obvious that this crew's problems started with a chain of events that began with their decision to depart PR when they did in a vessel that may not have been fit for the passage. But this has nothing to do with the assumptions eg made about the immediate cause of the grounding, and apparently nothing to do with his & Jim Cate's otherwise well-founded advice about lee shores.

I just cringe a bit when I see the often unwarranted piling on that seems to happen around here when threads pop up about fellow sailors suffering tragedies, although I do recognize the value at times from learning from others' mistakes. But as sailorboy just alluded to, do posters really rush to judgement on these incidents for their educational value or just to see a good car crash?

" good car crash " ,, always good mass media viewing, ( as any marketing man will tell you ) ,, but I think, what is this " not fit for passage " stuff,, when in fact it did do the passage, shame about the landing .

[Tia Bu]

Don't want to criticize. Glad everyone's o.k. From the sound of it, I'm going to second guess that a more prudent strategy might have been to sail to the South until Hole in the Wall light gave them a running fix to go into Northeast Providence Channel and then down to (well-lighted) Nassau Harbor, which can safely be entered in most weather conditions.

I had to bail out to the Abacos on a sail down to the Virgin Islands this spring. It is a tempting bail-out destination after you've had equipment trouble and bad weather out in the Atlantic. But this is not the first story I've read of a boat coming to grief trying to get into the Abaco passes in the rough seas generated by offshore storms.

The sad thing is, as tempting as those shore lights and a snug harbor might be, it's just not that much farther to run on down to Nassau if sea conditions warrant it. Of course, that decision is so much easier sitting in my warm, dry, stable house.

I'm glad they're o.k.!

[Exile]

Originally Posted by boatman61

So.. in your considered opinions travelling North along the East of the Bahama's Bank is a good plan this time of year.???

Not necessarily a bad plan, but it does seem as though the frequency of the usual northerlies that roll in this time of year has increased quite a bit in recent years. Maybe because people are expecting idyllic conditions to be the norm in the Bahamas, but there have been a number of sailors -- even experienced ones -- who have been bit.

This reminds me of an excellent instructor I knew who taught the USCG courses for 6-pack & other licenses. A few years prior he had set out singlehanded on a transatlantic circle passage, i.e. Ft. Laud-Bermuda-Azores-Canaries-FL as I recall. He was sailing through the Bahamas on the home stretch, almost home, when he encountered a severe northerly, couldn't manage to crawl off a lee shore, lost his engine trying, and ultimately lost his boat (he had an epirb & liferaft and was rescued). As I recall, his boat's sailing characteristics were probably closer to Jim C.'s than a Westsail, but with enough wind & waves just about any (cruising) boat will have trouble making way upwind. As usual, there were extenuating circumstances and a chain of events which probably started back in the Canaries when he failed to secure some essential engine parts. All of this he readily admitted to as part of his instruction.

[boatman61]

I go over the top of the Banks then ride the bottom of the N'lies when going East.
Coming from the East I'd run South of them this time of year.. and up the Strait to the nearest ICW cut then chug North.

[Cherod]

Originally Posted by boatman61

I go over the top of the Banks then ride the bottom of the N'lies when going East.
Coming from the East I'd run South of them this time of year.. and up the Strait to the nearest ICW cut then chug North.

that's it,,, end of...

[Group9]

Originally Posted by Exile

I'm sure there are posters on here who remember having to aim for the "pink house" when approaching the Bimini cut. .

I remember. Head for the beach until you are about to have a heart attack then turn left.

[Southern Star]

Boatman , in retrospect you are probably right, but for all we know that may have been their plan until they suffered engine/electrical failure. At that point I’m sure the Abacos seemed a safe refuge and they could have effected repairs in Marsh Harbour or Man o’ War Cay, before continuing on to Florida. And of course, there would be no put/putting up the ICW without a diesel.

What’s more, not all cuts into the Abacos are impassable in a norther. Yes, the Whale is a nightmare, but I have entered north Man O’ War in a norther and while the breakers were frightening as you approached, once lined up it was relatively comfortable.

Potentially good points by a lot of people, but we weren’t there. I seem to recall Boatman that a couple of years ago you were receiving some speculative criticism when you had problems while delivering a catamaran and had to pull into (or get towed into ) the Azores. I wasn’t one of the critics as I respect your experience and judgment.

Cheers!

Brad

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Southern Star

Boatman , in retrospect you are probably right, but for all we know that may have been their plan until they suffered engine/electrical failure. At that point I’m sure the Abacos seemed a safe refuge and they could have effected repairs in Marsh Harbour or Man o’ War Cay, before continuing on to Florida. And of course, there would be no put/putting up the ICW without a diesel.

What’s more, not all cuts into the Abacos are impassable in a norther. Yes, the Whale is a nightmare, but I have entered north Man O’ War in a norther and while the breakers were frightening as you approached, once lined up it was relatively comfortable.

Potentially good points by a lot of people, but we weren’t there. I seem to recall Boatman that a couple of years ago you were receiving some speculative criticism when you had problems while delivering a catamaran and had to pull into (or get towed into ) the Azores. I wasn’t one of the critics as I respect your experience and judgment.

Cheers!

Brad

Actually Cruisers Forum was the reason I ended up with an unwanted tow.. despite my saying no further assistance was required beyond the fresh water dropped off by the container ship as my tanks were contaminated, which by the way was transmitted over the radio by the captain of the ship and received by the Portuguese CG.. but.. gotta make a dollar or two boy.. and a private illegal tow was arranged without my knowledge or consent!!!
The criticism if I remember was about my ingratitude and being totally pissed off about it and saying so.. up until then everyone was wondering how I was dodging the systems and saying what great progress I was making till I hit light winds.. learnt to be picky about putting my Spot out from that trip.

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ry-120845.html

[boatman61]

In case you had not noticed..
Yes.. I'm still pissed off about that.. a blatant stich up by a couple of cowboys to make a quick buck.. at mine and the owners expense.
Something no one has tried in this thread.. unless I've missed something.

[cyan]

The part of this story that keeps bothering me is the engine failure. I've had a diesel quit before (on a mono), like most of us. No storm at the time for me, though, as I recall. We used some colorful sailor language, which just didn't help (the engine). Sails did what sails do, and in the end there were just beer stories to relate.

Most of my diesel headaches have involved fuel, but that's it. A headache. I have never been staring at a lee shore with a failed engine when I really needed it. The unfortunate lads at Elbow Cay have me re-thinking my nonchalant attitude regarding diesel engine(s).

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by Southern Star

3. They should have left sufficient sea room/stayed offshore overnight until things settled down. It turns out that they attempted to claw off shore for a few days. If three days sea room is always insufficient, what is enough?

This is the piece of the puzzle that I don't understand. If they were that far offshore of the east coast of the Abacos it should have been pretty easy to sail north or south and go around.

They were not embayed. That coast is a long convex curve and only 100 miles end to end. Worst case, if they made landfall directly in the middle it would be about 50 miles to go around the north or south end of the chain. Depending on how far off the course would have been at worst a beam reach and possibly slightly broad.

Unless the conditions were at survival level even a Westsail 32 can hold a beam reach for 10-12 hours. On the south end is the NE Providence Channel, 40 miles wide, deep and no rage. North is open ocean. Instead of heading east clawing off a lee shore why couldn't they just sail north or south?

My WAG is they waited too late to do this. Why? Unsure of position until they made landfall and ran out of sea room? Tired and hoped it would be calm enough to enter a channel when they arrived?

[rognvald]

Originally Posted by Exile

Or more aptly meant to do it once they knew they were screwed and out of any better options. Perhaps only meant to try & land somewhere near Hopetown, the rest may have been luck since it was nighttime and there's no good way to navigate through those reefs other than by eyeball. I'm sure there are posters on here who remember having to aim for the "pink house" when approaching the Bimini cut. Last time for me was 2010 with a chartplotter, Explorer charts, and temporary markers someone had put out. Nothing seemed to line up so waited for a sportfish to come by so I could follow his wake in. This is why boatpoker & others tried to explain some of the navigational challenges that are rather unique to the Bahamas.

Exile,
Did they remove the range markers on Bimini which we used for 10 years up to 2006? They are clearly marked on the paper charts. It made entry into the harbor very easy. Rognvald

[rognvald]

"3. They should have left sufficient sea room/stayed offshore overnight until things settled down. It turns out that they attempted to claw off shore for a few days. If three days sea room is always insufficient, what is enough?" Southern Star post #89

Since we are all "sailors", in theory, on CF, a reasonable person must ask why even a stodgy boat like a Westsail with sufficient searoom did not have the ability to avoid the islands? Did the vessel not have the ability to tack or jibe? Was the vessel frozen in its fateful track? If they were clawing to windward, could they not have changed course before it was too late for a successful course change? If you were 3 days offshore, is that not ample searoom to execute THESE maneuvers? Why would you continue holding a course that pointed towards disaster? For the sailors among us who do not motor the majority of time, these are questions that don't make sense. No one discounts the potential terror experienced on a dark night in dangerous seas where the boat seemingly totters on the brink of a loss of control, but prudent seamanship requires making decisions before a situation becomes critical . . .not at the time of apocalypse. I don't believe most people on CF approach these discussions with a vengeful, inappropriate attitude but rather as a teaching moment for those sailors that have never encountered situations like this in their sailing experiences and what could have been done to avoid the catastrophe. For the pilots among us, you know that most accidents in the air are attributed to "pilot error." Do you think it is any different for us sailors? Good luck and safe sailing.