Windlass won't feed splice, tips?

[wannacat]

I had a standard 3 braid splice for my Lofrans 1000 and it worked no problem, however I was worried it might give me problems down the road. So I cut it out and had a tapered splice put in it's place. I've had nothing but problems ever since!!! I have to help pull it through when retrieving. The standard splice went through no problem!!! I've got to go back to it, just have had to many other projects to bother with it and I have to help dissipate the chain in the locker anyways as there isn't much fall, so I have to be right there when pulling up.

[TrentePieds]

JiminVA:

What's giving you grief is not the hawse pipe - it's the spurling pipe. The hawse is the one in the bulwarks, or from the side of the hull to the deck, on a ship. You are not likely to have one. What you have, that takes its place, is either a bow roller or a chock.

The spurling pipe is the pipe that permits the rode to drop from the capstan or windlass into the rode locker and that's the one that's the hassle because there are certain appliances and design features of real ships that can only be miniaturized so far before they become dysfunctional.

My Vetus capstan is only a toy, and while the gypsy is meant for 5/16" [did I get that right, Jim ;-0)?] and works fine on the chain, it obviously must lose its grip when it gets to the rope. Therefore it incorporates a "clam" just like a self-tailing winch. Obviously, such an arrangement won't handle the splice, by whatever name you call it or however you make it, and you gotta help the capstan over the hump. That can be dangerous. Capstans can bite!

So you get the rope rode around the 180º wrap that is the maximum possible, and now, immediately after that, the rope has to do a 90º bend to enter a 2" spurling pipe. Dream on! That is NEVER going to happen. Apparently Vetus knows that, because the capstan is furnished with a spring-loaded sort of finger device that's meant to keep the rope in the clam. Dream on! A little saltwater on deck followed by nice bright sunshine for a few hours and the spindle on which the finger turns gums up with salt crystals and the finger no longer fingers. That's when you get your own finger out and help the poor little rope go around the bend. That takes two hands, to be safe. And all the time you need to hold your hind leg straight out, backwards, to activate the deck switch. That's when some stink-pot goes roaring by, too close, at twenty knots.

Nah - the whole rigamarole is just too ridiculous for words. TP is only a five-tonner, and the Salish Sea is only a biggish bathtub. So I ignore the capstan and handle my ground tackle entirely in the good old-fashioned way, relying on Mr. Armstrong. Setting, I haul all the required scope up on deck and fake it so it'll run clear when I need it. Hauling, I just fake the rode down on deck, then when we are in the clear, I ask MyBeloved to go to the forepeak and pull the rode through the spurling pipe from below.

Remember: You can't push a rope. Whatever Vetus sez :-)!

TP

[JiminVA]

Originally Posted by JOHNMARDALL

John Mardall here from Vetus Maxwell. Sorry to hear that you're having a problem with your new windlass. The spllcing advice already provided is good, but it you need more help contact me direct and I'll hook you up with Maxwell windlass guru Will Vrooman. We'll stay with you until you're completely satisfied with your new Maxwell.
If you haven't already bought new rope, please consider 8 strand brait, which will settle flat into your chain locker as though it were chain, without the bird's nests, tangles and hockles of 3 ply twist (especially if it's gone into the chain locker wet and then dried out).

Best Regards
John Mardall
Vetus Maxwell Group.

John,
Thanks for the offer of help. Your customer service orientation confirms why I chose a Maxwell.

I just bought 3 strand but I'm not opposed to buying new 8 strand if that will work significantly better. However, I have to be able to do the splice my self on the boat. That's the limiting factor.

What would you advise as the path that will most likely lead to success? Re-splice the existing 3 strand with a looser splice? Change to a different line? Learn to make the irony splice? Something else? I'd welcome the wisdom of your windlass guru.

Thanks,
Jim

[emrich]

along these same lines... I have used zip ties to mark every 10 foot of chain and of course the windlass eats them up...so what's a practical way of marking the chain so I actually know how much chain is out. For the record i have two anchors and two chains 150 feet with rope another 100 feet. Thanks for any help on this matter..

Chuck

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

... So you get the rope rode around the 180º wrap that is the maximum possible, and now, immediately after that, the rope has to do a 90º bend to enter a 2" spurling pipe. Dream on! That is NEVER going to happen....

Have you tried an irony splice? Please let us know how it works for you. It is absolutely seamless for every user I have spoken with.

By the way, the reason it is called an irony splice is that it used to be done this way, back before nylon rope. High tensile chain has resurrected the need, at least for some gypsies. So it is an old solution to a new problem. Ironic.

[carlo de leo]

Jim,
I have the same windlass (HRC8). It happened the saem with me.
1. It really got better when the splice softened
2. I think 8 strand will improve conditions, unfortunatelly I haven't found This rope here.
Its a good windlass after all!
Good luck!

[hurricanehole]

Hi
I also have to pull my 8 plait 5/8' rope splice through my Maxwell windlass, purchased recently. I used the yalecordage recommended splice with help from the Cotemar's forum post pictures. There's not much info about the irony rope to chain splice on the web. Does it even work with 8 strand?
Have to add that the 8 strand is great, helps on a cat with it's low weight and easy and small pile it makes. The Maxwell is great also except for the splice jamming every time.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by hurricanehole

Hi
I also have to pull my 8 plait 5/8' rope splice through my Maxwell windlass....
Have to add that the 8 strand is great, helps on a cat with it's low weight and easy and small pile it makes. The Maxwell is great also except for the splice jamming every time.

No, I the irony splice is not adapter to 8-strand rope, though Brian Toss said he was working on the problem. I imagine it is a marriage of the irony splice and plait splicing methods.

But if you have to pull it through every time... why recommend it? That problem lowers it to a "C+" rating at best.

[Tkeeth]

Originally Posted by hurricanehole

Hi
I also have to pull my 8 plait 5/8' rope splice through my Maxwell windlass, purchased recently. I used the yalecordage recommended splice with help from the Cotemar's forum post pictures. There's not much info about the irony rope to chain splice on the web. Does it even work with 8 strand?
Have to add that the 8 strand is great, helps on a cat with it's low weight and easy and small pile it makes. The Maxwell is great also except for the splice jamming every time.

Its not a maxwell problem, its a splice problem with the turns as previously explained. I have the same issue on a lewmar. I just bump it a few times and it drops.

[JiminVA]

Originally Posted by thinwater

Have you tried an irony splice? Please let us know how it works for you. It is absolutely seamless for every user I have spoken with.

By the way, the reason it is called an irony splice is that it used to be done this way, back before nylon rope. High tensile chain has resurrected the need, at least for some gypsies. So it is an old solution to a new problem. Ironic.

I was wondering about the name but not sure I follow the explanation. Is it because before HT chain the links had to be larger to achieve the required strength and that the larger gypsies handled splices better?

[JiminVA]

Originally Posted by Tkeeth

Its not a maxwell problem, its a splice problem with the turns as previously explained. I have the same issue on a lewmar. I just bump it a few times and it drops.

My problem is that the Maxwell gypsy will not grab the splice. At all. My prior manual windlass did not like the splice either. But all I had to do was push the spice into the grippers of the gypsy and it was fine. The Maxwell gypsy is much smoother. I tried pushing the splice into the grippers (while trying to not lose my fingers) but the gypsy just spins and spins with gripping. (In contrast, it grabs both the chain and the line just fine.)

Perhaps over time the splice will become more flexible and work better but I would expect it to become stiffer and more of a problem instead. I can try the irony splice but have heard mixed information about how hard it is for an amateur to do and achieve satisfactory results. (I'm still waiting to get my hands on Brian Toss book and ABOK). So maybe I'll start with redoing the existing splice and making it looser.

[estarzinger]

couple comments:

1. 8 plait is nice stuff. A definite improvement over 3 strand. But not life changing You dont need to trash a perfectly good piece of 3 strand to replace it with 8 plait. Its more the sort of thing when the 3 strand gets old and needs replacing, look at doing it with 8 plait.

2. The 'long chain splice' with 8 plait is an interesting idea. It is pretty obvious how you would do it -strip back 4 of the strands, take the remaining 4 strands around the chain link, and plait them down the rope, to staggered/tapered overhand knots and tucks with the original 4 strands. Should in theory be even cleaner than the 8 strand long splice because of the even (vs uneven) number of strands. Would be a decent amount of replaiting - good project for a long rainy day.

3. The essential factor in maintaining strength in these long splices is to ensure all the filaments (the smallest threads in the rope) are tension (roughly) evenly in the finished product. There are two things to look after to accomplish this.
The first is to maintain the same amount of strand twist in the long spliced strand as in the undisturbed strands. The hair gel trick helps with this, by holding the twist more firmly. The brand of rope also makes a difference. I know that NER rope likes to untwist just looking at it. I do not know which brand has the most 'stable' twist (anyone have an opinion).
The second is when you are running the long spliced strand down the rope to get it evenly (same, not more or less) tension vs the other undisturbed strands. It can help, just before you terminate the long spliced strand, to 'bump' the rope (eg give it a bit of load). This can help even up the tension. If that bump results in a horrible rope distortion you need to start over from scratch.

4. when splicing the 3 strands and plaits, I will comment that the exact stranding and plaiting and tucking sequence will effect the end aesthetics but does not really effect the strength much. For the strength you just need to get roughly even tension and a bunch of friction. So, dont initially stress out too much over the sequence. I'v done some splices in mega-plait (a 12 strand plait) and there are quite a number of different recommended splice/plait sequences, and I have just made up a few myself when I got lost doing a splice . . .and they have tested fine, just get even tension and a decent amount of friction/tucks/plaits.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by JiminVA

I was wondering about the name but not sure I follow the explanation. Is it because before HT chain the links had to be larger to achieve the required strength and that the larger gypsies handled splices better?

Yes, exactly.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

couple comments:

1. 8 plait is nice stuff. . . I got lost doing a splice . . . and they have tested fine, just get even tension and a decent amount of friction/tucks/plaits.

I really like these relaxed explanations, and they follow my experiences to a T. It's about focusing on the things that matter, structurally.

[UNCIVILIZED]

On splicing, particularly difficult ones, or in double braid, stick to new rope (or as close there to as possible). It'll save you a lot of headaches. And many riggers will flat out refuse to splice used rope.
Worst case, wash your old rode to get the salt & dirt that stiffens it out to some degree. Not that I'm advocating strong detergents or fabric softeners. They wash out important fiber protective coatings.

Also, do you practice somewhere other than on the foredeck of your boat. Like on the kitchen table or work bench, using just a short, cut off piece of chain, & some spare rope. It's much, much easier. So your success rate's higher, as is your confidence level when it's time to put one in on your anchor rode.