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Old 10-05-2015, 08:23   #46
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Re: Windlass only running when engine is off...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flod View Post
Ok, found the relay! It sat behind the vhf but with a sign that indicated that it belonged to the fridge. .
That makes me suspect that there is more than one thing wrong here. If I was working on this boat I woul ddo a detailed survey of all the wiring before starting to change things.

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Originally Posted by Flod View Post
It's a 4 pin 40 amp Bosch relay.
If it is a 4-pin (not 5-pin) relay then it will not have an 87a pin that turns on when the signal turns off. My specific theory does not apply.


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Originally Posted by Flod View Post
I have the alternator current on pin 87 and the windlass controll on pin 86. I'm tempted to switch those two so that alernator gets on 86 and the windlass control gets on 87.
What do you think? When engine is off I have 12v on pin 86 and 85 and 0 on 87. I can hear the relay draws when putting on the switch "commande guindeu"
If this relay is meant to control the windlass then it should have the following wires connected to it. Note there is more than one way of doing this but you have to be consistent overall..

- 85 and 86 should be connected to wires that have 12V difference between them (it does not matter which way) when the windlass is meant to be operable (be it when a small-current breaker in the panel is on or when the ignition is on, as seen by 12V+ potential in a certain wire of the Yanmar harness, which is probably used to activate one more relay that gives ignition signal to various things without overloading the thin Yanmar wire.)

- 30 and 87 should be connected in series (direction does not matter) with the thin positive or negative wires that go to the Lofrans solenoid/relay, say in the thin red wire between footswitch and battery positive terminal, or the thin black wire between C and battery negative terminal. I need to know which if the two "options" applies to your boat.

You get the prize for supplementing your question with much relevant data, whihc is missing in many "help me" posts.

If you can report how does what you have compare with what I described above I am sure we can make it work.

At a minimum before you switch 86 and 87, check that the following is true (to ensure consistency)

- if you will connect 87 to C make sure 30 is connected to battery negative
- make sure 85 is connected to battery negative.
- note that the panel breaker will not have any effect; you will only be using ignition (or whatever you call "alternator")

Also ensure there are small fuses (probably cylinder shaped glass fuses) protecting the wire that goes form battery to 85 or 86.

All that said, I am tempted to suggest that you forget the ignition thing and just use your panel breaker to control the relay. It may be difficult for you to connect both things in series. In this case 85 and 86 should be connected (order does not matter) to the panel breaker (which presumably is fed from a positive bus) and battery negative, with a little fuse somewhere between the panel breaker and the relay (unless the breaker is rated low enough that it will trip before the wire insulation will overheat because ampacity was exceeded). In this setup there is no need to have a wire that has 12V+ only when ignition is on.
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Old 10-05-2015, 08:47   #47
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Re: Windlass only running when engine is off...

Quote:
Originally Posted by svlamorocha View Post
That makes me suspect that there is more than one thing wrong here. If I was working on this boat I woul ddo a detailed survey of all the wiring before starting to change things.







If it is a 4-pin (not 5-pin) relay then it will not have an 87a pin that turns on when the signal turns off. My specific theory does not apply.









If this relay is meant to control the windlass then it should have the following wires connected to it. Note there is more than one way of doing this but you have to be consistent overall..



- 85 and 86 should be connected to wires that have 12V difference between them (it does not matter which way) when the windlass is meant to be operable (be it when a small-current breaker in the panel is on or when the ignition is on, as seen by 12V+ potential in a certain wire of the Yanmar harness, which is probably used to activate one more relay that gives ignition signal to various things without overloading the thin Yanmar wire.)



- 30 and 87 should be connected in series (direction does not matter) with the thin positive or negative wires that go to the Lofrans solenoid/relay, say in the thin red wire between footswitch and battery positive terminal, or the thin black wire between C and battery negative terminal. I need to know which if the two "options" applies to your boat.



You get the prize for supplementing your question with much relevant data, whihc is missing in many "help me" posts.



If you can report how does what you have compare with what I described above I am sure we can make it work.



At a minimum before you switch 86 and 87, check that the following is true (to ensure consistency)



- if you will connect 87 to C make sure 30 is connected to battery negative

- make sure 85 is connected to battery negative.

- note that the panel breaker will not have any effect; you will only be using ignition (or whatever you call "alternator")



Also ensure there are small fuses (probably cylinder shaped glass fuses) protecting the wire that goes form battery to 85 or 86.



All that said, I am tempted to suggest that you forget the ignition thing and just use your panel breaker to control the relay. It may be difficult for you to connect both things in series. In this case 85 and 86 should be connected (order does not matter) to the panel breaker (which presumably is fed from a positive bus) and battery negative, with a little fuse somewhere between the panel breaker and the relay (unless the breaker is rated low enough that it will trip before the wire insulation will overheat because ampacity was exceeded). In this setup there is no need to have a wire that has 12V+ only when ignition is on.

Thanks for the advices. I think your last idea is the most preferable. I really don't like the idea of not being able to quick lower the anchor if the engine stops.

I did some more measuring and 87 is connected to the engine alternator current( just turning the ignition on does not effect anything) 85 is connected to ground and 30 is connected to the 5 amp fuse ( you can see it to the left of the relay in the picture). 86 have +12v when solenoid works. Which one of these (if any) is connected to C I don't know.

At the lofrans control box C is the only cable coming from the relay-side of the boat. The positive cable to the remote comes from the positive thick terminal on the control box itself. So it has to be the negative side that is controlled by the switch. This confuses me a little bit since all the wires at the relay side is positive


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Old 18-05-2015, 04:44   #48
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Re: Windlass only running when engine is off...

Today I solved the mystery. I think that the relay is correct connected but someone switched the cables (positive/negative) at the control box. I realised that the one going to "C" which should be ground/negative was red and the one wired to remote positive was black. I now rewired so that the red cable coming from the relay is going to remote positive and then ran C direct to ground. This way the remote has a 5 amp fuse and is only positive when engine is running and windlass breaker at Nav table is on. The relay now does what it is supposed to.


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Old 23-05-2015, 17:08   #49
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Re: Windlass only running when engine is off...

Congratulations Flod. Glad the problem is solved. Interesting to hear what it was. Thanks!
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Old 23-05-2015, 22:29   #50
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Re: Windlass only running when engine is off...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flod View Post
Thanks for the advices. I think your last idea is the most preferable. I really don't like the idea of not being able to quick lower the anchor if the engine stops.

I did some more measuring and 87 is connected to the engine alternator current( just turning the ignition on does not effect anything) 85 is connected to ground and 30 is connected to the 5 amp fuse ( you can see it to the left of the relay in the picture). 86 have +12v when solenoid works. Which one of these (if any) is connected to C I don't know.

At the lofrans control box C is the only cable coming from the relay-side of the boat. The positive cable to the remote comes from the positive thick terminal on the control box itself. So it has to be the negative side that is controlled by the switch. This confuses me a little bit since all the wires at the relay side is positive


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Old 24-05-2015, 03:32   #51
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Re: Windlass only running when engine is off...

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Congratulations Flod. Glad the problem is solved. Interesting to hear what it was. Thanks!

Thanks, I think the PO had tried to fix the original problem with the solenoid getting stuck ( which actually was due to corrosion) and then probably switched the cables by mistake. Now the only thing I intend to do is to prepare an "emergency" cable to be able to bypass the relay in case of engine trouble. If I make one, connect to one end, mark it and just leave it in the windlass compartment, I'll hopefully remember it in a couple of years.


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Old 24-05-2015, 10:28   #52
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Re: Windlass only running when engine is off...

Why even restrict using the windless to when the engine is running? One day you may have to pull anchor very quickly for some reason - say lee shore and dragging in a blow. If the engine won't start for some reason you will be playing with cables in a boat that is tossing around.

Better to not have this restriction and use common sense to run the engine when using the windlass.
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Old 24-05-2015, 10:56   #53
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Re: Windlass only running when engine is off...

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Originally Posted by mitiempo View Post
Why even restrict using the windless to when the engine is running? One day you may have to pull anchor very quickly for some reason - say lee shore and dragging in a blow. If the engine won't start for some reason you will be playing with cables in a boat that is tossing around.



Better to not have this restriction and use common sense to run the engine when using the windlass.

Off course this is the best way to do it but I don't feel certain how to disconnect the relay and now when it works as designed I might just leave it like that.


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