Why do we have electric anchor winches when they clearly do not work. Anchor winches

[stormalong]

Originally Posted by anotherT34C

99% of the time it goes like this; windlass pulls in slack chain for 10 seconds then shut down. Boat then drifts forward for 5 seconds as the chain pulls us forward as it slacks. windlass then runs 10 seconds to pull in slack chain... repeat as necessary. If winds are high enough that the chain isn’t slack, drive forward until it is. Communicate via walkie talkies

This plus your engine should be running and your wiring adequate for the full load of the windlass.

In calm conditions get the boat moving forward by picking up catenary. Once the boat is moving pick up all the chain and the anchor. In strong wind conditions motor forward to reduce the load on the windlass.

If your wiring is inadequate the voltage will drop under load and the motor will overheat. I properly sized circuit breaker will prevent this. Buying a big windlass and scrimping on wire size is an invitation to motor burnout.

[captmikem]

Originally Posted by seandepagnier

As for burning out the windlass. This is not any difference from hydraulic. It will also burn out if stalled. Maybe your non-hydraulic windlass is not a fair comparison. Maybe it needs a fuse, it should have a temperature sensor as well but probably doesn't.


hydraulic windlass will use twice as much power to do the same thing which probably doesn't matter since it doesn't run for very long.

A hydraulic windlass (or any hydraulic motor) does not 'burn out', the pressure relief valve opens and bypasses the windlass when stalled. You will not damage it. When the load lessons the valve closes and the windlass is running again. I have had numerous hydraulic windlasses on many boats and had no problems with them, (had many electric winches on small boats and had little trouble trouble with them either).

As far as using twice as much power to do the same thing, that does not enter into it. You have a limited amount of battery power, even though you are charging the battery as the windlass is running (if you have the engine on), hydraulics run off a pump on the main engine or gen set, doesn't matter how much power it is taking. It takes a small percentage of the engine power. (I did have an electric driven hydraulic pump on an 80' sailboat, but it only drove sail handling winches).

I have hydraulic winches on my two small boats at the moment, a 50 ft ketch and a 38 ft motor sailor, they both work fine and I am happy with them. The only problem with hydraulics are they are noisy.

Where most people go wrong is they do not use a snubber, leaving the load on the windlass at anchor. It is hard on them and the damage is cumulative.

M

[Dsanduril]

Originally Posted by Palarran

The OP's question really doesn't interest me (anchor winches?) but I will say that I use my windlass to bring my boat to the anchor all the time, and I really mean, almost all the time. It doesn't come close to stressing it as much as lifting 100' of chain and my 121 pound anchor straight up. I'd have to be in over 15 knots of wind, probably close to 20, to use the motors to bring the boat to the anchor.

Originally Posted by LoudMusic

I often use the windless on our Orana to take the slack out of the chain, then let the weight of the chain pull the boat forward, then repeat until we're on top of the anchor. It's a fairly quick process and keeps the stress on the windless to a minimum. If the wind has been blowing, the anchor is going to be BURRIED. I let the boat work the anchor loose while I take up slack on the chain with the windless.

In some hurried situations I've just laid on the "UP" button and hauled 150'+ of chain and anchor straight up. But as you're probably aware in a cat, the boat can get sideways and then you're rubbing chain against one of the hulls. Sometimes it's good to let it settle and center and just work the slack. A little bit of throttle can straighten that out pretty quick too, but then you're motoring forward and not pulling the boat forward with the windless, which is what this whole topic is about

I guess it must be us catamaran sailors For ourselves, we probably sail off the anchor ~25% of the time? When there's a bit of wind and some extra maneuvering room. Don't start the engine(s), don't have the alternator running. Raise the main (using the capstan on our windlass as the "electric winch" for the last bit) then haul the boat forward with the windlass and raise the anchor. Fall off and start sailing.

Can't imagine having gear that can't handle that. Except for the first 10 seconds or so while the boat gets a little way on the load on the windlass (and the batteries) is pretty light.

[BlackHeron]

I can't imagine needing electric help to raise the main. With the wire halyard winch I can raise our main as fast as I can spin the winch handle...say 8-10 seconds. Dropping it is just hitting the clutch on the wire winch and it falls down into the lazy jacks in.around 2-3 seconds.

Sailing off of the hook is doable but we are often anchored way up in shallow water tucked into a tight protected spot as far as we can usually get. It is likely barely light enough at pre-dawn to see what we are doing and we need to follow our breadcrumb tracks back out on the chart plotter to avoid shallow spots, the gap in the bar at the mouth of this creek, and all the crab pots we dodged coming in the night before as the sun was getting low on the horizon.

Motoring or at least motorsailing is a more sane approach here until we get into more open water and the sun comes up over the horizon to light the way. I'm all for sailing as much as possible but this is why we have a diesel auxiliary in the first place.

[GRIT]

Dsanduril, YES.

That's pretty much how we've always done it, if there's room. On our old monohull, and the new cat. If there's no room, well, we use the windlass for it's designed purpose, and don't over stress it.

We have suitably heavy duty windlass, chain and anchor (1700w, 10mm, 55kg), and are happy to let it work a little.

Don't you love anchor threads? (Sure, it's a windlass thread, but it's pretty much the same thing.)

Cheers.
Paul.

[GRIT]

Originally Posted by BlackHeron

I can't imagine needing electric help to raise the main. With the wire halyard winch I can raise our main as fast as I can spin the winch handle...say 8-10 seconds. Dropping it is just hitting the clutch on the wire winch and it falls down into the lazy jacks in.around 2-3 seconds.

Sailing off of the hook is doable but we are often anchored way up in shallow water tucked into a tight protected spot as far as we can usually get. It is likely barely light enough at pre-dawn to see what we are doing and we need to follow our breadcrumb tracks back out on the chart plotter to avoid shallow spots, the gap in the bar at the mouth of this creek, and all the crab pots we dodged coming in the night before as the sun was getting low on the horizon.

Motoring or at least motorsailing is a more sane approach here until we get into more open water and the sun comes up over the horizon to light the way. I'm all for sailing as much as possible but this is why we have a diesel auxiliary in the first place.

Your mainsail is about 250 square feet. Now imagine an 800 square foot mainsail, and you can start to imagine how you might like an electric windlass.

I dare say: There are as many ways to do a thing, as there are folks doing that thing. And most of them are "right" in their own minds. You can quote me on that!

Cheers.
Paul.

[Dsanduril]

We don't need electric help, we just have it so handy that we use it. Raising the main I usually pull the first half up, then "jump" the halyard to get the next quarter. The last quarter is a bit heavy and needs a winch. I can put the halyard on the halyard winch or on the electric capstan, they're located a couple of feet from each other. Since I already have the windlass remote in my hand, and the windlass is powered anyway.....

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by Fuss

So why do we put up with this weakness. When clearly what we need is a self contained hydraulic one for a reasonable price.
Advantages are huge... just start the process, if the hydraulics are overloaded the winch stops, nothing burns out. You can pull up your anchor in all conditions, not just sunny days.

You're exaggerating the problems with electric and the benefits of hydraulic.

I used to have a recovery winch on my pickup truck. Hydraulic ones had just come out and following, by and large, exactly the reasoning you just articulated, I got a hydraulic one. Friends had electric winches and I saw them firsthand, being run hard. Same motors as anchor windlasses, but with a cable drum instead of a gypsy.

The first thing to understand is that DC electric motors work very well and although they can overheat it takes continuous operation over a long period with a heavy load to accomplish this. Minutes not seconds. It is easy to avoid this with a modicum of judgment and proper technique. If you have a long hard pull, stop and wait for the motor to cool halfway through.

So, hydraulics. Just like electric motors, hydraulic systems overheat when run hard for long periods. This can be mitigated by adding an oil cooler, usually with a fan, which further increases costs, complexity, failure points, and space required.

You also probably don't realize that hydraulic systems in any kind of hoisting application are prone to freefall. That can happen when lowering unless a restriction orfice is used in the return line, which generates even more heat. It can happen when the load is stopped due to even a slight leak. It can happen during operation if a hose bursts or if the pump starts sucking air due to a leak and oil exhaustion.

Then you have to run the pump. How will you power it? Sailboat engines don't have a place for it, or a standard PTO. Will you run it whenever the engine is running? It will cost you HP and fuel if you do. Will you have an electric clutch? More cost, complexity, and another failure point.

Hydraulic systems don't have a battery that stores energy. Obviously that means you have to run the engine when you use hydraulic things. Less obviously, the engine has to drive the entire load -- For a 2hp winch, that's close to 3hp when you include losses. That is large enough that side loads on the crankshaft become a concern, just as they due with oversize or multiple alternators.

Another consequence of this is that you have to run the engine at full RPM to get the windlass to run at full RPM. Makes a lot of noise, and in the common situation where you are slowly coming up to the anchor it means that the windlass will run slower.


It also means you can't use the windlass if you need to deploy the anchor in an emergency brought about by loss of engine power.


Finally you now need a hydraulic tech to maintain this stuff. Not hard to find except that they tend not to inhabit marinas and boatyards that cater to small yachts. Similarly for parts and supplies availability.


Not problems that can't be overcome, to be sure, but not the panacea the OP projects.

[tankersteve]

So we need a manufacturer to develop a lightweight hydraulic system, engine driven with accumulator, that can run the following:

Anchor capstan
Bow thruster
Emergency pump
Backup engine starter

with options for a hand pump to the accumulator and an option to run furlers, davits and various sail winches.

But it sounds like you'd want a boat in excess of 50 feet to warrant a system this robust and potentially complex.

Tankersteve

[JON REISWIG]

I have a electric anchor winch "Lighthouse" very well made and I purchased a ratcheting winch handle so can use manual as well for emergency or exercise

[GRIT]

Originally Posted by GRIT

Your mainsail is about 250 square feet. Now imagine an 800 square foot mainsail, and you can start to imagine how you might like an electric windlass.

Cheers.
Paul.

I meant to say electric winch, to raise the mainsail. Sorry for the confusion.

Dsandril: I didn't mean to imply you use an electric winch for your mainsail, I should have said that we do, aboard GRIT.

We nearly always raise the mainsail with the electric winch. I sometimes bring it up half way, but my wife is small enough that it's never worth the trouble for her to do it. The push of a button, on the self tailing winch, makes it easy for either of us to raise the main. The anchor comes up just as easily.

I dare say, my wife had never felt so empowered, aboard a boat. Electric winches are a great equalizer.

Cheers.
Paul.

[BlackHeron]

I don't see why an electric motor-driven hydraulic pump is a big deal.

Heavy-duty electric motors are fairly cheap and efficient and when installed in a clean and dry environment last almost indefinitely. The issue with electric windlasses is that they are usually undersized to fit into cramped windlass housings and installed into damp locations like anchor lockers and hooked to awful twisting gearboxes and finally.set way out on the end of a long usually undersized cable subjecting the motor to terrible voltage drop while being "bumped" on and off constantly by the operator so it has to endure that startup motor current inrush repeatedly with its associated heating cycles.

Instead the hydraulic pump motor can live in a nice clean and dry spot down below with good ventilation and on a short run of wire near to the battery box. It could easily be oversized to the job and not take up any critical extra space and be sourced from commercially available heacy duty motors.

Heck,.it could even be a robust 3-Phase AC induction motor run off of a standard frequency drive inverter fed off of the DC batteries. Nearly indestructible and efficient.

[meirriba]

Not a serious post...
We have windlass installed by Lagoon, so certainly not oversized.
It works 10 years now, minor hitches, nothing serious.
Sometimes breaker jumps, put it back up and continue operaration. Nothing burns, nothing breaks.
If needed, (almost never, but sometimes we sail out of an anchorage under sails only, no engine) it easily pulls the boat to the anchor, no problem...
Either the OP lacks experience (or sells hydraulics, which are fine as a system)

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Quote: "I’m going to the lee of the island, I f***ed up with the weather forecast, there is a local storm, it’s dark, the waves are bigger than forecast, it became a lee shore, it’s my weather apps fault etc etc"

Oh, Dear!! If that's the situation you find yourself in, you might like go step ashore for a while to do some reading and learning before you play at skippers again!

But you are pulling our legs, right?

TrentePieds

Oh yes, forecasts are always right, and no competent skipper would ever find themselves in anchorage which looked safe earlier but has turned into a lee shore with wind and waves which make it dangerous. Oh no, never happen to a good skipper.

And for sure, no squalls could occur which were not forecast, nor could they possibly last long enough to that you couldn't just sit tight. After all, it couldn't possibly get worse, my iphone says so.

But, on the other hand, if that situation happens all the time to me... Maybe I'm just really bad at anticipating weather.

s**t happens.

But back to electric anchor windlasses: I have had, on the other hand, great experiences with my electric anchor windlass. In over 24 years of cruising our electric anchor windlass had been very reliable. We had one break down, the clutch cone broke. It was easily replaced and the windlass has been fine since then.

We always use the anchor to pull the boat to to "up and down" (after a short pull and a bit of a rest while the catenary gets the boat moving).

We have an undersized windlass (not an oversized one) because we wanted less weight on the foredeck, and also because the smaller one we chose had a faster inhaul rate.

We have an 85 amp circuit breaker near the windlass (accessible on the foredeck through a hatch) but we've rarely tripped that breaker (only once as far as I can remember).

Maybe the fact that we have a light (18,000) 43' foot boat makes it easier on the windlass. Actually it makes a lot of things easier.

We also use a light chain (5/16 HT) and a light anchor (44lb Bruce). Both have served us well.

So the answer to the OP is: We have an electric anchor windlass because it works perfectly, has for a couple of decades, and it is light and simple.

Oh, and by the way, we OFTEN bug out of an anchorage which turns unpleasant. No way will I stay on a lee shore somewhere when it gets rough, unless it is unsafe to move due to surrounding hazards. Not even for an hour.
If we're anchored in a place which could experience a wind shift and become a lee shore, we always have a plan for an alternate place. Or we just go to sea.

[Fuss]

Originally Posted by meirriba

Not a serious post...

We have windlass installed by Lagoon, so certainly not oversized.

It works 10 years now, minor hitches, nothing serious.

Sometimes breaker jumps, put it back up and continue operaration. Nothing burns, nothing breaks.

If needed, (almost never, but sometimes we sail out of an anchorage under sails only, no engine) it easily pulls the boat to the anchor, no problem...

Either the OP lacks experience (or sells hydraulics, which are fine as a system)

It is a serious post, I want to feel comfortable pulling my anchor up in strong winds, I’m not interested in anchor techniques on sunny afternoons. I see I have some problems in strong winds and I have used a few hydraulic systems that work great in marginal conditions. I didn’t burn my electric motor out btw, it’s more than 10 years old. I made the post a bit provocative, I don’t really believe that electric anchor winches don’t work, but they do need respect and care. Hydraulics just stop when overloaded and I like that concept.