Why Are Next-Gen Anchors Considered 'Better' ?

[imagine2frolic]

I followed the thread closely at SN. Maine Sail you always remain a gentleman when enquiring.. A.L. didn't fair so well at Multi forum either, for the same reasons?........i2f

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Ancora Latina

... I didn’t answer too the Main-sail personal attacks against the Raya, using WORD for WORD all the arguments developed by Craig Smith / Rocna – The anti RAYA (or anti João) position of Main-sail is well known and I do not want to follow him into the TRAP...

So, it is now possible to attack the Raya, AS IF it were a person? I would say, in the best case scenario a Raya is an animal (a fish, actually). But otherwise, it is an object, an anchor.

Now can you PLS be so good and direct me towards any independent online tests / comparisons / reviews of the Raya?

THX in advance of your support,
barnie

[Ancora Latina]

Originally Posted by Maine Sail

I will ask it again:
Question:
Do you, or have you, in anyway know, speak to, consult with, design with, have any financial of familial ties or have any relations with Alain Poiraud the ex-owner of Spade anchors?

Before answering your questions, may I remain you that the subject of this thread is “Why are Next Gen Anchors Considered 'Better?' and not « The gossips of the anchor business »

those are NOT Craig Smith's words those are my words.

Ok, why not?? But strangely enough, they are WORD for WORD also Craig Smith’s words, and he is THE ONE who initiated this little game of confusing my name with the one of Alain - Strange coincidence? and one can ask himself why are you so interested in personal gossips?

Regarding the Sword/Oceane comparison with the Raya anchor, on the Rocna web site you can read the following: (http://www.rocna.com/kb/Spade_and_Sword_anchors)

The Sword is an anchor design which has gone through three or four re-designs and re-branding exercises. It was known for some time as the Oceane,... Meanwhile, its designer Alain Poiraud, has developed yet another iteration, the "Raya", under a Brazilian organization called Ancora Latina.

Yes, I will accept your comments, but I will still consider that YOUR words are very very similar to the Rocna words.. Coincidence or???

Then I will ONCE answer your questions:

Do you, or have you, in anyway know, speak to, consult with, design with, have any financial of familial ties or have any relations with Alain Poiraud the ex-owner of Spade anchors?

First, if you want a precise answer, ask only one question at time.

a) yes, I know Alain Poiraud, who involved in the anchor business, doesn’t know him and his anchor the Spade? I have a (dedicated) copy of his books about anchors.
b) Yes I have spoken at several occasions with him, about Brazilian girls, French food and wines, cars.. and yes, anchors too! ..
c) No I’ve never “consulted” him
d) No I’ve never “designed” with him
e) No I’ve no financial nor familial ties with him
f) No I haven’t had any “relation” (?), including sexual ones with him

Is your product, the Raya, an evolution of, part of, or a continuation of the development of the Sword or Ocean anchors which Alain designed?

If not, can you explain why the Sword, Oceane and Raya have such striking similarities?

The RAYA anchor has been developed at first for the Brazilian market, where more than 80% of the boats are equipped with poor local clones of the Bruce anchor:



- before talking about “similarities” Can you tell me how many times you had the possibilitie to physically compare side by side both a Sword and a Raya anchor? Or are you again copying Rocna’s gossips?

- Could you please list the “similarities” of both the Rocna and of the RAYA with the Sword/Oceane anchors and tell me which one has more striking similarities to the Sword?..

- You may also play the same game between the Bruce and the RAYA – And NO my name is not also "Peter" and I do not have any relation with Peter Bruce!.

Now, I apologize for this aside, out of the subject, can we come back to the main subject ?


João NODARI

[Ancora Latina]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Now can you PLS be so good and direct me towards any independent online tests / comparisons / reviews of the Raya?
THX in advance of your support,
barnie

http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php?topic=2207.0

http://www.oceanbluesailing.co.uk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4889

[barnakiel]

Dear Joao,

I said: ...independent online tests / comparisons / reviews of the Raya?..."

I like what you sent but these are forum threads and ones where you participated too - so I do not find them independent to any degree.

Moreover, I have been to your page and found many, to my understanding, unsupported statements:

Examples:

"Each constituting part of the anchor is made out of a high strength steel ..."

- But no steel grade given.

"...cut out in our workshops with rigorous precision... (...) ...Undergoing a last quality control..."

- But no quality standards mentioned.

"The results ... confirm the independent tests carried out by the specialized nautical reviews, ... , comparative tests ..."

- But no links to such sources given.

So, rather than going into lengthy explanations of whether you know Mr. X or not and whether the design is similar to design Y. or not - could you please provide us with aforementioned "...independent tests carried out by the specialized nautical reviews..." and other technical information, if available?
Regards,
barnie

[Therapy]

From a forum.

Indeed. We haven't anchored in any difficult bottoms or had a 180 windshift yet.

The lack of tip weight might be a disadvantage in weed. OTOH the Raya is very much sharper at the tip than the Spade and I would imagine that this might offset the lack of weight to a greater or lesser extent. João does say that they have a South American equivalent of kelp and that the Raya is designed to cope. We'll see, and you'll read all about it on here.
_________________

Waiting to see the follow-up.

P.S.

My offer still stands though summer is officially over.

[Boracay]

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[sildene]

A bit of topic drift up there, but in there somewhere it was noted that the geometry of the anchor (presumably shank versus fluke) can be chosen to ensure that it self-orients without the need for a roll bar.

It is not clear whether such a geometry has any negative effects or requires compromises - at least with the history of the Spade it does not seem to have had.

Every few years there seems to be a major boating magazine undertaking a comparative anchor test (the West Marine one was in 2006, I think), so you would hope that we're due for a fresh one soon. Let's hope when it comes, it includes the Raya and/or Sword, and that they include, in addition to the obligatory sandy bottom, a hard-to-penetrate bottom.

In fact, I sometimes think an anchor test could provide more useful information if done on land rather than under water. It would be nice to see a series of close-up photographs (or video) of how each anchor digs in, and eventually rips out as tension increases. And you would actually see how it happens that an anchor fails to penetrate a harder bottom. (Perhaps only a super-soft mud test may prove to be a bit tricky to stage on land).

Martin

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by Ancora Latina

Then I will ONCE answer your questions:




First, if you want a precise answer, ask only one question at time.

a) yes, I know Alain Poiraud, who involved in the anchor business, doesn’t know him and his anchor the Spade? I have a (dedicated) copy of his books about anchors.
b) Yes I have spoken at several occasions with him, about Brazilian girls, French food and wines, cars.. and yes, anchors too! ..
c) No I’ve never “consulted” him
d) No I’ve never “designed” with him
e) No I’ve no financial nor familial ties with him
f) No I haven’t had any “relation” (?), including sexual ones with him

Thanks for the answer I will no longer refer to you as João/Alain.


Can you answer the short scope question? Feel free to PM me so as not to dag this on here..

[sildene]

Originally Posted by mikereed100

Here's a crude drawing illustrating what I mean. Notice that the rode is pulling up on the long shank anchor whereas it is still pulling down on the short shank.

Nice illustration, Mike, although the Rocna/Manson shanks may lie 'flatter' to the fluke than shown. However, Maine Sail's photos show the anchor rode pulling sideways not upwards. The rode appears to lie on the bottom while pulling the shank horizontally with the fluke lying on it's side and the tip digging in at a sideways angle (see his video).

So when you factor that in, does it change your assessment about short versus long shank peeling the tip out?

[Keegan]

Originally Posted by Maine Sail

I'd say I like the Manson & Rocna the best, they've given me the best performance, and then the steel Spade.

Maine Sail:

I kind of thought that your results would show that Rocna and Manson were practically equal and that they performed the best.

Thanks for sharing your test results and experiences.

[Pelagic]

Maine Sail… I really want to thank you for the fantastic work you have done on this thread to demonstrate the design tradeoff with anchors.

On my boat, this has been bothering me for quite a while as a solution to new generation anchors means some major bow work

Unfortunately on SG I have 2 x 75lb CQR’s and all chain which as you can see nestle under the bowsprit and swivel out of the way of the dolphin striker.

They have kept me out of trouble so far because I usually look for a depression somewhere on the chart and drop the anchor there, set carefully and continually monitor. But I agree with your assessment of them and sleep poorly when the weather comes up.

So, thanks to Maine Sail’s convincing explanation, I am going to bite the bullet and build a strong shoe forward of the bow spirit to somehow accommodate a roll bar type Manson or Rocna… unless you have any other suggestion that you think would work just as well but might look better. (PS… My priority is performance!)

Does anyone have any photos of a Rocna type installed on a long skinny bow spirit like mine, where the chain goes under the bow spirit then out to a shoe?

[GordMay]

I really dislike “captive” anchors, where the shank & rode come up through an anchor platform (on a sprit or not); much preferring an arrangement where the rollers are at the end or sides of the platform or bow (free & open), allowing the anchor and rode to be picked and moved, without disassembly.

I recognize the aesthetic challenge this poses to boats with anchor platforms.

Rocna tries to address some of the challenges in dealing with their anchors:
➥ Common fit challenges (Rocna Knowledge Base)
➥ Bow roller assembly design (Rocna Knowledge Base)
➥ Anchor retainment (Rocna Knowledge Base)

Rocna installation photos, by boat model:
➥ Category:Rocna bow compatibility (Rocna Knowledge Base)

(1) "captive", & (2) "free" anchors

[Pelagic]

Thanks Gord….. just what I was looking for. I have just emailed both Rocna and Manson for advice.


As you can see it is pretty busy on the bow spirit with the 2 anchor shanks behind the forward drum furler and my windlass quite far back.

I have been scratching my head about a good solution for this for quite some time...

This solution looks promising http://www.rocna.com/kb/Image:Selene...er-concept.pdf

[mikereed100]

Originally Posted by sildene

Nice illustration, Mike, although the Rocna/Manson shanks may lie 'flatter' to the fluke than shown. However, Maine Sail's photos show the anchor rode pulling sideways not upwards. The rode appears to lie on the bottom while pulling the shank horizontally with the fluke lying on it's side and the tip digging in at a sideways angle (see his video).

So when you factor that in, does it change your assessment about short versus long shank peeling the tip out?

Hi Sildene,

My post was a response to Maine Sail’s concern that the Raya might have a tendency to pull out of the seabed on short scope due to the relatively small amount of surface area between the shank attachment and fluke tip. When I considered this it seemed to me that shorter lever arm of the Raya may actually work to it’s advantage in a short scope situation. My drawing shows a rode of 3:1 scope under tension and would seem to confirm my thoughts but, that said, I don’t know how this would work out in practice and only physical testing would show if I’m right or thoroughly confused. This assumes an upward pull on a fully tensioned rode, a horizontal pull would not affect the anchor. The drawing is just a quick scribble and is not meant to represent any particular anchor. I too would love to see some independent testing that included the Raya but I suppose we will have to wait patiently until one of the organizations that does this sort of thing steps up.

Mike