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Old 10-05-2011, 06:19   #406
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Re: Why Are Next-Gen Anchors Considered 'Better' ?

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Originally Posted by GordMay View Post
An anchor could only be properly called “oversized”, if a smaller example would do the job intended.

Gord you are starting to sound like my 6th grade English teacher

I think she would probably have suffered some sort of cardiac arrest if she had been reading some of my posts. So I suggest you don’t go down that path. We need your expertise here in Cruising Forum.

Oversized : As the anchor is over the size specified by the manufacturer for that particular vessel.
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Old 10-05-2011, 06:36   #407
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Re: Why Are Next-Gen Anchors Considered 'Better' ?

Ah: Oversized - as in Underspecified.
You’re right, I’m the guy who doesn’t see a glass half full or empty; but twice as large as it need be.
In the case of anchors; bigger is better (up until you cannot handle them).
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Old 10-05-2011, 07:05   #408
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Re: Why Are Next-Gen Anchors Considered 'Better' ?

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I have the huge anchor part ticked off (I just had it off the boat yesterday, refreshing the chain marks, and gee it is big) but now you are making me feel insecure and thinking I need bigger heavier chain
One consideration overlooked frequently is the age of the chain versus the original thickness/weight of the anchor chain.
- - In today's world of acidic oceans/bay/harbors when combined with Chinese or Bangladeshie made chain it does not take long before the "new" chain rapidly starts to disappear.
- - I currently get maybe a year of two before the zinc coating is gone and you are back to bare iron/steel chain.
- - Another half year or year and if you really look carefully at all the links and where they come in contact with each other the steel/iron is being rapidly ground away. As the boat moves at anchor with current/wind/etc., the constant relentless flexing of the chain which is under tension not only from the "pull" of the boat but also from the shear weight of the "down-link" chain is grinding away at that interface.
- - You have to flex open the links to get a good look at the surfaces where the individual links come in contact with each other. You will notice a thinning of the chain thickness such that a 3/8" chain will be down to 5/16" links in short order. I have seen minimalist cruisers with 1/4" to 5/16" chain that has been ground down below 1/4" to 1/8" inch inside the links. Scary!
- - As far as I know there is no practical solution to this problem short of buying new chain which is not cheap even for the Chinese/Bangladeshie stuff. The only solution is to use an oversized chain size and you get back to your design chain size as it wears . I always buy nearly twice the length I need so that I can "swap ends" when the rust and wear on one end of the chain gets pronounced.
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Old 15-05-2011, 18:59   #409
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Re: Why Are Next-Gen Anchors Considered 'Better' ?

Well the Sade S160 came in Friday, and we got it on the boat Saturday. It slid right into the slot and rides fine on the bow roller.

The issue with our boat was a very small 'captive' bow roller.

While the Spade was a bundle of $$$ it was cheaper in total than doing a lot of rework on the boat to fit any of the other anchors. So, for us, it was a good choice.

It still remains to be seen how well it will work. But, I am certain that a 77lb Spade will significantly out perform our previous anchor, a 45lb CQR.
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Old 16-06-2011, 11:05   #410
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Re: Why Are Next-Gen Anchors Considered 'Better' ?

On our Sabre 34, If we are the anchor boat for a raft-up I use my 35# CQR with 20' of 3/8 chain and have never had a problem. If it is just us alone I use the Fortress 16 with 15' of 1/4 chain. I do not have a windless. Seems to work for us.
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Old 17-06-2011, 20:23   #411
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Re: Why Are Next-Gen Anchors Considered 'Better' ?

There are many who still subscribe to the 'oversize' theory but that does seem to be a throw back to the old days where that often was a damn good idea. These days the good reputably made gear is far better in most regards as are the know properties and performance. So it's not as important to oversize like it was. In most cases the manufacturers recommendations are nearly oversized themselves as they all try to out do the other.
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Old 19-06-2011, 19:52   #412
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Well GMac, I value your experience and judgement but from what I can see and recall, and from consulting texts of yesteryear there has been quite a dramatic reduction in the sizes of anchors recommended by manufacturers. This might be a a recognition of design improvements, a drift towards lighter displacement, or sheer wishful thinking but whatever the reasons I do think recommended anchor and other gear sizes have been trending down for past fifty years.
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Old 19-06-2011, 20:31   #413
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Re: Why Are Next-Gen Anchors Considered 'Better' ?

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Originally Posted by HOBO-S34 View Post
On our Sabre 34, If we are the anchor boat for a raft-up I use my 35# CQR with 20' of 3/8 chain and have never had a problem. If it is just us alone I use the Fortress 16 with 15' of 1/4 chain. I do not have a windless. Seems to work for us.
34 ft boat weighing about 12000lb , borderline anchor and a lot less than a boat length of chain, with other boats hanging off of it as well

Remind me not to anchor in the same bay as you
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Old 20-06-2011, 00:20   #414
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Re: Why Are Next-Gen Anchors Considered 'Better' ?

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Well GMac, I value your experience and judgement but from what I can see and recall, and from consulting texts of yesteryear there has been quite a dramatic reduction in the sizes of anchors recommended by manufacturers. This might be a a recognition of design improvements, a drift towards lighter displacement, or sheer wishful thinking but whatever the reasons I do think recommended anchor and other gear sizes have been trending down for past fifty years.
Yes and yet no. If you suss the latest batch of anchors out, the Rocna, Supreme, Ultra and a couple of others, you'll see the length/displacement to anchor kg ratio, has actually decreased or in other words the anchors specs out from those are equal to or larger than what S/L, now Lewmar, suggest for example with the CQRs and Deltas. But then if you are just coastal day cruiser or a can racer the specs are a bit over cooked and you can downsize a bit.

The recommended Rocna and Supreme by both of the respective sizing charts for our datum boat is 15kg yet as much as we try we have one hell of a time trying to shift their 6/7kg versions. Most of the time we can't.

Personally I think the latest batch did the right thing and have sized the charts to offshore cruzing yachts rather than harbour hoppers and in doing so it's got people who don't know the ins or outs or think it all about the anchor only, in a safer place.

But in many cases the recommended size is overkill for most hence why you hear so many saying how good their new anchor is. Of course it will be if you swap from a 30lber to a 40lber.... and then also add in the design improvement at the same time. I do have to laugh and many posts along the lines of - "I thru away my 30lb plow and got a new XXX 40lber. It works so much better and I don't drag any more. It's the greatest anchor ever made". Hello... absolutly zero surprise there, the only surprise would be if they didn't see a very dramatic improvement.

A couple of quick examples for a average 40fter from charts in use as I write -
Delta recommends a 16kg
Supreme a 35 or 45lber (16 or 20kg)
Rocna a 25kg
CQR a 16kg
Manson plow a 45lber (20kg)
(note - off the top of my head so hopefully they are right)

Don't see the new ones being lighter than the older ones and that's not even bringing in the often large design variations/improvements. Besides the new ones, or at least some of them, are more about area than weight. They are only being refered to in weights as who the hell knows what a 850sq/cm anchor looks like

Stick a 25kg on the bow of some 40fters and one can often be excused for thinking they hung the dingy off the wrong end of the boat. That's unless it's 3am while your anchored behind a coral reef just south of MotoNoWhere in the middle of no where a nd it's gusting 60kts, then any anchor looks about 200 times too small Hence my comment the latest bunch have upsized from what was the manufacturers recommended norm, which is good for the distance cruzers but maybe overkill for a harbour hopper. And that's ignoring what's between the boat and anchor, it can make a massive difference to the anchors performance most of the time.

Look back before the CQR arrived and some of those were monsters for sure but then many of those were just interesting shaped lumps that didn't have huge design holding power and relied more on just weight.

######################

Not to sure he's that far off Cat. 1lb per foot was and still sort of is the 'starting point' for anchors on 'the average' boat so a 35lber on a 34fter would be common as muck, in fact it is. 10mm chain is huge for a 34fter so being a tad shorter than the norm is sort of not that bad. As long as the mantra aboard come anchor deployment time is 'scope, scope and don't forget lots of scope', that system would work OK I would expect. Personally I'd rebalance it but if it's working why bother rushing into that.

Now about multihullers and their weird ideas. As the wind rushes pasted their ears, so much faster than mono men, and in doing so sucks out lots of grey stuff they................ Just joshing big fella Now stop reading and go get sanding that beast of yours. We are all waiting for the launching party
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Old 22-06-2011, 17:02   #415
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Re: Why Are Next-Gen Anchors Considered 'Better' ?

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Yes and yet no......


Now about multihullers and their weird ideas. As the wind rushes pasted their ears, so much faster than mono men, and in doing so sucks out lots of grey stuff they................ Just joshing big fella Now stop reading and go get sanding that beast of yours. We are all waiting for the launching party
Heh!
Good to see you are still around.

Always a pleasure to gain from your input.
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Old 01-04-2012, 17:49   #416
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Re: Why Are Next-Gen Anchors Considered 'Better' ?

415 posts and here comes the new Manson Boss. Does any trust a new untested product from a reliable company?
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Old 02-04-2012, 06:12   #417
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Re: Why Are Next-Gen Anchors Considered 'Better' ?

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, Warren.

Early adopters might trust a new untested product from a reliable company.
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Old 02-04-2012, 07:04   #418
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Re: Why Are Next-Gen Anchors Considered 'Better' ?

Anchor threads go on, and on.

The bottom line is on a hard bottom you need an anchor with a sharp point to penetrate, the sharper the better, but that means a smaller surface area.

On a soft bottom you need an anchor with a large surface area to grab as much as the soft bottom as you can, hard to have a large flat anchor with a sharp enough point.

All anchors including the new miracle ones are some sort of compromise on these two extremes.

The more weight, the more penetration with any shape. You can add the anchors weight to the weight of the ball of dirt or sand it can grab, so...in theory a more efficient grabber can be sized smaller, but then you have a smaller weaker anchor that can't grab as much bottom.

So you are back to carrying a big massive anchor with lots of heavy chain, and hopefully a sharp point somewhere that can dig in when you back down on it to bury it. Everything else is just hype.
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Old 02-04-2012, 10:36   #419
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Re: Why Are Next-Gen Anchors Considered 'Better' ?

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There are many who still subscribe to the 'oversize' theory but that does seem to be a throw back to the old days where that often was a damn good idea.
I anchor almost 365 days a year and subscribe to the oversize theory. The weight penalty is very small. It is easy to forget how much the Chain weighs. I just changed from 13mm chain to 10 mm G7 and saved about 200kg. An extra 15 or 20kg in the anchor is nothing in comparison.
The new generation anchors are much better, but oversize does help. I can anchor in places others fear to tread because of poor holding or exposure. There is nothing better than being in an idilic spot that is crowded during the day, but everyone leaves at night because it's not safe overnight. Places like Antipaxos island 50 boats during the day, most evenings we have it to selves.
I can also anchor on a shorter scope which opens up further anchorages. I can stay at anchor when others are seaking the shelter of a marina.

All this plus extra security with only a weight penalty of 15- 20 kg and a small extra cost. I think it's a bargin.
Anyway just my 2c an alternative perscetive. If you are a crusing sailor an oversize anchor will be the most valuable 15-20 kg you have on board
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Old 02-04-2012, 15:04   #420
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Re: Why Are Next-Gen Anchors Considered 'Better' ?

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I anchor almost 365 days a year and subscribe to the oversize theory. The weight penalty is very small. It is easy to forget how much the Chain weighs. I just changed from 13mm chain to 10 mm G7 and saved about 200kg. An extra 15 or 20kg in the anchor is nothing in comparison.
The new generation anchors are much better, but oversize does help. I can anchor in places others fear to tread because of poor holding or exposure. There is nothing better than being in an idilic spot that is crowded during the day, but everyone leaves at night because it's not safe overnight. Places like Antipaxos island 50 boats during the day, most evenings we have it to selves.
I can also anchor on a shorter scope which opens up further anchorages. I can stay at anchor when others are seaking the shelter of a marina.

All this plus extra security with only a weight penalty of 15- 20 kg and a small extra cost. I think it's a bargin.
Anyway just my 2c an alternative perscetive. If you are a crusing sailor an oversize anchor will be the most valuable 15-20 kg you have on board
Thats as good an argument for an oversize anchor I have seen. +1
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