Cruisers Forum
 


View Poll Results: What is your Bigness Factor?
0.5 - 0.9 = Light 18 13.85%
1.0 - 1.2 = Normal 33 25.38%
1.2 - 1.4 = Conservative 37 28.46%
1.5 + = BIB 42 32.31%
Voters: 130. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on Cruisers Forums. Advertise Here
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 01-04-2013, 18:46   #211
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,945
Re: What is your Bigness Factor?

I don't think there would be any particular increase in tension on the anchor rode if boats were going up and down in large swells, and I have observed this myself while at anchor in 10-foot swells down in the Virgin Islands. The swells were so long and big that we were just going up and down almost as on an elevator. If you didn't look out the ports you really didn't mind the motion, but if you watched what was happening it was very seasick inducing. However, there wasn't any additional pressure on the anchor rode due to this. We just went up and down.

When waves create additional forces is when they are very steep and breaking, which can happen with shorter waves in shallow water. I too have felt that surge when anchored during a hurricane with some short breaking waves even though land was only maybe 1/4 mile to windward of us. However, I am uncertain what displacement effect there would be in short breaking waves like that. The heavier boat would resist moving back, but once moving would do so with more momentum.
__________________
Kettlewell Cruising
Kettlewell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2013, 19:00   #212
Registered User
 
Snowpetrel's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Hobart
Boat: Alloy Peterson 40
Posts: 3,919
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post
Snowpetrel:
I'm not considering orbital currents. That's trickier, and in any case I think it falls into the majority of forces, which are largely independent of displacement (because of the "supply matching demand" balance referred to earlier)

I'm considering the boat travelling, under the influence of gravity, down the flank of a long swell.

It would do this regardless of the orbital motion of the water particles: they will add to it, but in inverse proportion to mass (which I think is why a surboard initially accelerates quicker without anyone on it).

The situation I'm singling out is more like the situation of a skier. Heavy skiers do not travel faster than light skiers on a given slope, but they punch a bigger hole in the wall when they 'hit the daylodge'.

I think 'travelling downhill due to gravity' is the probably the one mechanism where a 2 tonne boat applies roughly twice as much force as a 1 tonne boat when it gets pulled up short by the chain. And I think it applies only in roadsteads, ie virtually unlimited fetch.
Agreed. I guess I am thinking that a longer boat is less likely to be affected by waves. Hence putting lwl into the formula. It also has the handy effect of fixing the scaling issue. So it can apply to vessels from supertankers to small yachts. It is hard to get hard data on this due to events being pretty rare. The thailand tsunami is all I can really think of. Cabo san lucas had severe wind and wave action acting together. Pretty hard to work out the ratio's of each factor but in this case much of the stretch in the system is taken out by the wind load so the wave loads would have a big part to play. I am betting a long light boat would have less anchor load in this case than a long heavy boat, but I am unsure how much by maybe Alain's 20%. A long enough boat would just pitch and not really be effected by the waves at all. The formulas show me that for most vessels if an anchor is sized correctly for windage it should be ok for displacement as well in most decent anchorages. If the wave length (not swell length) gets to the same as your waterline length get the **** (insert expletive of choice) out.
__________________
My Ramblings
Snowpetrel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2013, 19:13   #213
CF Adviser
 
Pelagic's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2007
Boat: Van Helleman Schooner 65ft StarGazer
Posts: 9,774
Re: What is your Bigness Factor?

I try to keep things simple when dealing with dangerous stuff, so a few related questions:
  • What Does Bigness Factor mean on an anchor?
  • Does it relate only to physical size, or does it also apply to Safe Working Load (SWL)?
  • If SWL is also a factor, when that anchor break-out point is reached and exceeded for the exact same anchoring scenario, does the anchored boat’s displacement acting on all ground tackle components.. not come in to play?
  • If no, please explain to this simple mariner...
Pelagic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2013, 19:16   #214
CF Adviser
 
Bash's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: sausalito
Boat: 14 meter sloop
Posts: 7,260
Re: What is your Bigness Factor?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
[*]If no, please explain to this simple mariner... [/LIST]
I think the basic theory behind the OP's calculous is: big = gooder; small = badder.

Gotta love "bigness factor," regardless. (Even if mine only comes out to 1.19. Have I mentioned I've never dragged this anchor?)
__________________
cruising is entirely about showing up--in boat shoes.
Bash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2013, 20:04   #215
Registered User
 
Delfin's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Anacortes, WA
Boat: 55' Romsdal
Posts: 2,098
Re: What is your Bigness Factor?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post
Delfin

It's evident you didn't read or reflect carefully on what I wrote in my last post, but I guess it would be churlish not to try one last time.

eg your "wave hitting...". I quite agree, but this has nothing to do with lifting on a long swell, which is the ONLY thing my post considered

and "looking at different boats at anchor..."

If you were to do this in an open roadstead exposed to a long swell train, boats of different mass would go up and down harmoniously, all floating on their marks. So would a ping-pong ball, for that matter.

Where would you draw a demarcation between rising to a tide and not rising to a chop?
Because you're talking about situations within that demarcation, and I'm talking outside it.
I wonder if you see any difference in the movement of these two vessels in this gale, one smaller and lighter than the other? It appears to me that consistent with the laws of physics, the heavier vessel is pitching less and on a more subdued period than the lighter vessel. Or maybe it's just me.



But I'm sure you are quite right that if you anchor in a roadstead with large breaking waves, you'll need a larger anchor than if you merely anchor in gales as in the video.
__________________
https://delfin.talkspot.com
I can picture in my head a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it. - Jack Handey
Delfin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2013, 20:12   #216
Registered User
 
Delfin's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Anacortes, WA
Boat: 55' Romsdal
Posts: 2,098
Re: What is your Bigness Factor?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
I try to keep things simple when dealing with dangerous stuff, so a few related questions:
  • What Does Bigness Factor mean on an anchor?
  • Does it relate only to physical size, or does it also apply to Safe Working Load (SWL)?
  • If SWL is also a factor, when that anchor break-out point is reached and exceeded for the exact same anchoring scenario, does the anchored boat’s displacement acting on all ground tackle components.. not come in to play?
  • If no, please explain to this simple mariner...
Yes, once a vessel breaks free and is no longer anchored, then displacement matters as greater force is required to stop it. As long as it is anchored, however, displacement matters only slightly more than the color of your dodger when comparing vessels of equivalent windage in the same anchorage.

But then, that is a topic for a thread on stopping moving boats, not on getting boats that aren't moving to remain that way.
__________________
https://delfin.talkspot.com
I can picture in my head a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it. - Jack Handey
Delfin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2013, 20:12   #217
Registered User
 
Snowpetrel's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Hobart
Boat: Alloy Peterson 40
Posts: 3,919
Re: What is your Bigness Factor?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
I try to keep things simple when dealing with dangerous stuff, so a few related questions:
  • What Does Bigness Factor mean on an anchor?
  • Does it relate only to physical size, or does it also apply to Safe Working Load (SWL)?
  • If SWL is also a factor, when that anchor break-out point is reached and exceeded for the exact same anchoring scenario, does the anchored boat’s displacement acting on all ground tackle components.. not come in to play?
  • If no, please explain to this simple mariner...
The original Kettlewell bigness factor has a scale issue, it unfairly penalises small boats and favours bigger boats with a much higher number. But is applicable for comparing vessels of a similar size. Kettlewell's formula was sized for vessels around 35-38 feet from memory. The further you go from this the less accurate the results become.

A way to get around the scaling effect is to use windage which scales in a perfect world by four times if you double the size of a vessel keeping everything else the same (displacement would be eight times).

length is probably the best indicator of windage, though not the only one (or a perfect one), but for simplicity lets use it. So take length x length in ft then divide this answer by the anchor weight in pounds.

Length(ft) x Length (ft)
Anchor weight (lbs)


For a BIB anchor you should be getting an answer of less than 25 or so. It is strictly for comparing different vessels anchors. And is of use when Jedi says he has a 176 lb bruce on his sundeer 64 and it held him in a hurricane, I can punch the numbers and go WOW 23.3 definitely in the BIB but about the same as a 50lb anchor for my 34 footer, OK.

this simple formula neglects the differences in vessel type, shape, freeboard, displacement SWL etc. It doesn't tell you anything about loads. In reality a sundeer 64 scaled exactly to 34foot would be a much smaller boat than snowpetrel so I would probably need to go to a 55 or 60lb anchor for the same holding.

Your vessel comes out as 65x65=4225 4225/97.5 = 43.3 which is pretty small about the same as my 34 footer having a 25lb anchor. However it obvously works fine for you, as a 25lb anchor might work for Snowpetrel, but it is not BIB for your vessel. For your 65 footer to get into BIB territory you would need 65 x 65=4225 4225/25= 169lb anchor

Of course bigger boats aren't double in all ways, masts are shorter beam is less and freeboard is reduced so real scaling is about ^1.7ish, but it doesn't take into count displacement which can add about 20% to the loads in some cases, and anchors also don't double in Holding power with twice the weight(^1). they scale by about ^0.93. So there are lots of further complexities that you as the boat owner need to take into account.

I wouldn't ignore the manufacturers guidance. And wouldn't want to go under there recommended values. Different anchors have different holding powers and this also takes no account off.
__________________
My Ramblings
Snowpetrel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2013, 20:14   #218
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: on board, Australia
Boat: 11meter Power catamaran
Posts: 3,629
Images: 3
Re: What is your Bigness Factor?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bash View Post
I think the basic theory behind the OP's calculous is: big = gooder; small = badder.

Gotta love "bigness factor," regardless. (Even if mine only comes out to 1.19. Have I mentioned I've never dragged this anchor?)
Then we have to conclude that with your anchor, a different anchor type is a more important factor than bigness.

Better anchor type otherwise bigness reguired.
downunder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2013, 20:24   #219
Registered User
 
Delfin's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Anacortes, WA
Boat: 55' Romsdal
Posts: 2,098
Re: What is your Bigness Factor?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowpetrel View Post
The original Kettlewell bigness factor has a scale issue, it unfairly penalises small boats and favours bigger boats with a much higher number. But is applicable for comparing vessels of a similar size. Kettlewell's formula was sized for vessels around 35-38 feet from memory. The further you go from this the less accurate the results become.

A way to get around the scaling effect is to use windage which scales in a perfect world by four times if you double the size of a vessel keeping everything else the same (displacement would be eight times).

length is probably the best indicator of windage, though not the only one (or a perfect one), but for simplicity lets use it. So take length x length in ft then divide this answer by the anchor weight in pounds.

Length(ft) x Length (ft)
Anchor weight (lbs)


For a BIB anchor you should be getting an answer of less than 25 or so. It is strictly for comparing different vessels anchors. And is of use when Jedi says he has a 176 lb bruce on his sundeer 64 and it held him in a hurricane, I can punch the numbers and go WOW 23.3 definitely in the BIB but about the same as a 50lb anchor for my 34 footer, OK.

this simple formula neglects the differences in vessel type, shape, freeboard, displacement SWL etc. It doesn't tell you anything about loads. In reality a sundeer 64 scaled exactly to 34foot would be a much smaller boat than snowpetrel so I would probably need to go to a 55 or 60lb anchor for the same holding.

Your vessel comes out as 65x65=4225 4225/97.5 = 43.3 which is pretty small about the same as my 34 footer having a 25lb anchor. However it obvously works fine for you, as a 25lb anchor might work for Snowpetrel, but it is not BIB for your vessel. For your 65 footer to get into BIB territory you would need 65 x 65=4225 4225/25= 169lb anchor

Of course bigger boats aren't double in all ways, masts are shorter beam is less and freeboard is reduced so real scaling is about ^1.7ish, but it doesn't take into count displacement which can add about 20% to the loads in some cases, and anchors also don't double in Holding power with twice the weight(^1). they scale by about ^0.93. So there are lots of further complexities that you as the boat owner need to take into account.

I wouldn't ignore the manufacturers guidance. And wouldn't want to go under there recommended values. Different anchors have different holding powers and this also takes no account off.
Good summary.

On the last, a further complication is that the efficiency of anchors changes with size. One anchor that is a poor performer in lighter weights can, with the benefit of gravity, be a stellar performer in heavier weights. Evans Starzinger's tests on a large Bruce type, Manson and Rocna brought this home. Another complicating factor is where the wind resisting surfaces are on the vessel. In the video posted above, the sailboat lies more quietly in the same wind as the lighter power boat. However, its center of the windage is forward of the centerline, so it exerts some significant pressure on its ground tackle when it veers. However, as a rule of thumb your formula seems very useful since it helps explain why the Mirabelle broke free and why your anchor is far proportionally larger for your boat and why you likely won't break free. Or me for that matter.
__________________
https://delfin.talkspot.com
I can picture in my head a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it. - Jack Handey
Delfin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2013, 20:26   #220
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,441
Re: What is your Bigness Factor?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kettlewell View Post
I don't think there would be any particular increase in tension on the anchor rode if boats were going up and down in large swells, and I have observed this myself while at anchor in 10-foot swells down in the Virgin Islands. The swells were so long and big that we were just going up and down almost as on an elevator. If you didn't look out the ports you really didn't mind the motion, but if you watched what was happening it was very seasick inducing. However, there wasn't any additional pressure on the anchor rode due to this. We just went up and down.

When waves create additional forces is when they are very steep and breaking, which can happen with shorter waves in shallow water. I too have felt that surge when anchored during a hurricane with some short breaking waves even though land was only maybe 1/4 mile to windward of us. However, I am uncertain what displacement effect there would be in short breaking waves like that. The heavier boat would resist moving back, but once moving would do so with more momentum.
I can't find anything to disagree with. Your account reminds me of something I'd forgotten: I recall watching the echosounder in Rada Vinapu roadstead, clocking 3m or more of rhythmical rise and fall, and we didn't even require a snubber. (Admittedly on a mixed rode with a heavy chain)

My argument did not aim to predict what would happen in practice, but an attempt to erect a theoretical and metaphorical fence around an exceptional class of situations which, in theory, COULD mean that a heavy boat imposed a proportionately heavy demand on the anchor.

I'm entirely comfortable with you pointing out that, even in such cases, the steepness of the swells is generally so minimal that the hypothetical 'skiing' problem does not arise.

What you are pointing out is that the fence I drew does not, in most real cases, contain any lions, only lambs.

Which I think provides added consolation for those favouring simple guidelines like SnowP's, which neglect to consider displacement when sizing anchors and rodes.

Those formula and charts and rules of thumb are outside the fence.
Andrew Troup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2013, 20:26   #221
CF Adviser
 
Pelagic's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2007
Boat: Van Helleman Schooner 65ft StarGazer
Posts: 9,774
Re: What is your Bigness Factor?

I agree Delfin... once you are starting to drag onto a lee shore and you hope anchor will reset, your displacement becomes a major factor in choosing your ground tackle.

But isn't that a key part of choosing your anchor system?.... when you are in marginal conditions
and dragging because of extreme weather and/or just poor holding?


Pelagic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2013, 20:46   #222
Registered User
 
Delfin's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Anacortes, WA
Boat: 55' Romsdal
Posts: 2,098
Re: What is your Bigness Factor?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
I agree Delphin... once you are starting to drag onto a lee shore and you hope anchor will reset, your displacement becomes a major factor in choosing your ground tackle.

But isn't that a key part of choosing your anchor system?.... when you are in marginal conditions
and dragging because of extreme weather and/or just poor holding?


The point of an anchor that is as big as you can carry is so you don't find yourself in Bewitched's situation where you need to have the hook "reset", so of course picking an anchor that is capable of resisting extreme forces is prudent and cost efficient insurance. And, unless you think that anchoring in the Alenuihaha channel is prudent, the forces you have to deal with are almost entirely related to your windage and the profile of surfaces in contact with the top foot or so of water. These are calculable, and while SP's formula doesn't directly address these, it is accurate enough for a rule of thumb.
__________________
https://delfin.talkspot.com
I can picture in my head a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it. - Jack Handey
Delfin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2013, 21:00   #223
Do… or do not
 
s/v Jedi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 11,778
Re: What is your Bigness Factor?

Here is some anchor size vs displacement:
s/v Jedi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2013, 21:13   #224
CF Adviser
 
Pelagic's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2007
Boat: Van Helleman Schooner 65ft StarGazer
Posts: 9,774
Re: What is your Bigness Factor?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delfin View Post
The point of an anchor that is as big as you can carry is so you don't find yourself in Bewitched's situation where you need to have the hook "reset"....
Yachts can and do compromise on safety, because of lack of mandatory equipment regulations on ground tackle.

However, I find it hard to believe that applying same calculations as Classification Societies, which does include displacement and SWL, is foolish.

Also any active cruising sailor who believes they will never find themselves in a dragging situation, believes too much in the Vendors hype.
Pelagic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2013, 21:31   #225
Registered User
 
Delfin's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Anacortes, WA
Boat: 55' Romsdal
Posts: 2,098
Re: What is your Bigness Factor?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
Yachts can and do compromise on safety, because of lack of mandatory equipment regulations on ground tackle.

However, I find it hard to believe that applying same calculations as Classification Societies, which does include displacement and SWL, is foolish.

Also any active cruising sailor who believes they will never find themselves in a dragging situation, believes too much in the Vendors hype.
Actually, after 40 years of cruising, I have confidence that if I undersize my ground tackle, or anchor places I shouldn't I could easily drag, as I have I think 3 times before. So I carry a big anchor and try not to do stupid things so I won't drag again.
__________________
https://delfin.talkspot.com
I can picture in my head a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it. - Jack Handey
Delfin is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:52.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.