Thoughts on Anchor Gear?

[MKB53]

One thing I have learnt from these threads is that there is never unanimity on an anchor!

What I have so far is
a: The good old CQR is just that - good, reliable and old
b: The Delta is good, probably better than the CQR. Good value for money
c: The Manson Supreme (or Rocna) is very good (recent posting by Seafox excepted) but costs 50% more.

With Delta and Manson the recommended anchor weight is lighter than the CQR.

I am a bit confused on what weight to target. With Cats vs Monos the trade off of gross weight vs additional windage. As my current anchor is 16Kg I think one size up (20Kg) is about right. According to both Delta and Supreme sizing for a 36ft 20Kg would be one size up, suitable for over 40ft according to their charts.

[GMac]

Delta made in china verses Supreme made in NZ explains the price difference. They are literally giving Deltas away here at the moment. They are being rolled by the new ones and the copies out of china. The copies are pretty much identical, some actually slightly better, and about 25% of the Delta price.

I was playing with some anchors last week with Seafox in mind. I just can't understand why he's having the issues. And I am surprised and un-impressed with Mansons response to him. I do know they can't get their head around his issue either but I would have thought they would at least swap that anchor for another just to see if Seafoxs specific anchor was somehow different. I've chatted with Seafox and he's not doing anything out of the ordinary so it does seem to be a very anchor specific issue for sure.

MKB53, I really would consider a new gen anchor before a Delta or plow. The benifits are definatly there. The price comments I must admit to finding hard to understand, doesn't an anchor help keep you alive while you are asleep? I would have thought a couple of $100, if that, would be worth the extra peace of mind. But strangely you are far from alone. We often get people skimping on anchors so they can go from a 30 to 36" flat screen. To me that just seems very wrong but personal choice I suppose.

If a weight challanged multi I'd be considering a Raya hard. Same blade area as say the Rocnas and Mansons but with less weight. The Raya team have sussed where the big loads are so made those bits super strong and where the loads are lower they adjust the metal to suit hence resulting in the same performance yet with a nice weight saving. Swap the saved weight to chain length and it's only good. The Raya has the added benefit of a very good attachment point it you want to tandem and the abilty to 'set' it for mud and other very soft bottom types.

I don't think I'd be going any bigger than a 20kg. In the new gen range 20kg is a BIG anchor for a light 36fter. I'd be thinking more a 16kg if talking new gen anchors. Using weight wrongly really as these anchors aren't really weight based designs.

10mm chain = no bigger. Some nice weight savings if you dropped to a G40 8mm though. 0.9kg per meter lighter so save weight or add length, I'd add length myself. G40 8mm has a break load of 4000kg so will exceed most anchors holding loads comfortably. Gyspy size warning here, as in what have you got and will another chain fit.

Swivels are needed in some rodes but not in all of them. They do do a necessary job in some cases. The key thing is to get a good one. I didn't see any photo so can't comment on what one you have. Generally a good swivel is 4 times stronger than the shackles most people use when talking equivalent sizing.

For example a commercial shackle (which most people use) for 10mm chain i.e a 12mm shackle has a WLL in the region of 500kg, they wonder around that number. The swivel we would suggest to use has a WLL of 1850kg. It's actually marked as 1250kg but that is with a 6:1 safety margin. Both are rated at 4:1 safety margin. So in that case the BREAK load of the shackle is pretty much the same as the WLL of the swivel. But not all swivels are created equal so be careful and it's possible, probable, you can't use that swivel load with the one you have.

If you are going to go shackle use a Van Besst Green Pin or a Crosby red pin. They are batch tested and have huge loads for their size. Mouse well and check often.

Good to see you thinking, I wish more would.

[MKB53]

Hi GMac

Thanks for the detailed comments, very useful. Price is not the determining factor but I want to make sure I don't pay more for something that does not have the added performance. I do like to sleep easy at night!

At this stage I am leaning toward the Manson but will have a look at the Raya if I can find one locally.

I already have an all chain rode so will not go to the added expense of downsizing to 8mm. The swivel states it has a Working Load of 2000Kg which means by your measures it should be well up to the task. I will take your advice on the shackel for the second anchor though.

I was thinking of 20Kg largely because my current anchor is 16Kg and does not perform well but as that is probably design related it is not a valid benchmark. I am becoming convinced it is the tilting shank that is the issue.

[GMac]

You're on the right track, nice.

Good with the swivel but one thing I forgot to mention is check the center pin can't come out. Some are big bolts that run through one part and screw into the other. On many swivels this bolt isn't 'permanently fixed' in there so if the swivel fills up with crap and jambs they have been known to unscrew. That is 100% bad. Just look at one end and you'll see if it's been fixed, assuming it's not a cast Kong one. If it isn't welded, weld it. Don't rely on the end of the bolt being peened over, those have failed for exactly the same reason as well.

Correct thinking about the anchor weights. The new ones are area based but being referred to in weight terms as that is what everyone has been using for so long.

I'm lead to believe Raya hope to be available in Oz very shortly.

[MKB53]

This swivel upper section (rode end) appears to made in 2 halves that are bolted together over a flange on the lower section (anchor end). This flange carries the load and allows the rotation.

I will have to take it apart to confirm this is the case but if so the lower section can't come loose UNLESS the bolt holding the upper section together comes loose in which case the whole thing falls apart.

I will have to try posting the picture again.

[MKB53]

Take 2 on the swivel picture

[GMac]

A Kong made in Italy, all fine. The big Kong at that and miles stronger than the shackle next to it. Just screw that bolt in hard and don't be shy using a Loctite if you like. Just remember Loctite holds well and sometimes requires heat to loosen it's bond.

An Aussie without PBW chain... well fancy that

[MKB53]

Nice to know, thanks.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by GMac

A Kong made in Italy, all fine. The big Kong at that and miles stronger than the shackle next to it...

See the Kong website for specs:
KONG - Carabiners, Climbing Gear & Safety Equipment (.Yachting)

And/or:
http://www.ropeinc.com/kong-anchorswivels.html

Don't confuse the Kong Swivel with the similar, but slightly inferior product by Suncor.

[Dune]

Does anyone have any experience with anchor swivels from North Star Anchors? I am looking at their large swivel, with a working load of 6500#. Check them out here:

Anchor Swivels Large Anchor Swivel

They are in Chapter 11 at this time, and are unloading some merchandise at pretty good rates. Just curious about quality.

[GMac]

Made in Asia. The end you can't see well is the, or at least one of the, important bits and can tell you about how good the rest of it possibly is.

Hard to say from the photo sorry.

[Meridian]

Hi, Dune...I took a look at the swivel you referenced. The weak point, to me, is that the screw- pins at either end that attach to the chain or the anchor are load bearing. It is much better if these pins are fixed (non-removable), and there is a non load-bearing means of attaching the 2 ends of the swivel together.
The Kong swivel is designed this way (and is why I have a Kong. No affiliation in any way, other than I have one), and others may be as well.
You don't want the load-bearing pin working lose over time, and failing (un-screwing) catastrophically.
Just my $.02
John

[Hiracer]

Originally Posted by Minggat

Has anyone tried the Max?

Super MAX Anchors

Is this what you mean by "scoop fluke"?

I have owned and used the CQR, both the Max and SuperMax, a Bruce clone, and a steel Spade. My runaway favorite is the Spade.

The Max and SuperMax must be used at a certain scope. According to the vender of this anchor, too much scope can lead to dragging--which I discovered to be true. In shallow anchorages with big tidal changes that can be an issue. It's a good anchor, but I don't like the too-much-scope issue.

To me, the anchor question is a no brainer. The new generation anchors are clearly better. So what if they cost more. We're are talking anchors. What's the potential cost if the anchor doesn't hold? Let's figure out what's important here.

[seafox]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Seafox,

What size Supreme? What size plow?

Curious since your experience runs exactly opposite to mine.

Cheers,

Jim

Manson sup Anchor is a 25lb (recommended to me by Steve at Manson for our lotus 10.6) Chain is 50m of 8mm short link. Have been adding 10 to 20m of nylon to end and it is a bit better doing that but it is a real pain to attach all the time. The anchor set up is all chain and I have to manually attach rope. Never had to do that with 30lb plough and we always set real good with the plough.

Steve at Manson just ignored my emails in the end. Put it in the too hard basket.

I am making a video to go on youtube this summer when the weather gets a little better. Dam useless anchors.

[seafox]

Couple of local boatees who were going to buy one have seen my anchor in use and have been put off the manson supreme.
Until I get a safisfactory response from the Manson crowd I will continue to show people who want to buy one how useless they are in our cruising grounds.