The Herding Instinct

[Christian Van H]

Originally Posted by Randyonr3

If you have as much experance as you say, 38 years, figured you started sailing at 10, that would put you around 45 to 50 years old and I would think with that age, and experance, you wouldnt chalange something like the rules of anchoring.. If you dont accept the way someone has anchored, you just move on down the road..
And as far as the floats on my anchors, what the hell are you doing that close to my boat anyway..
You might have the experance but you talk like a 17 year old with his first boat.

That's amazing Randy! You are a math wiz! I WAS 10 years old when I started cruising on Barnegat bay... you must tell me how you calculated that someday. Now, as far as moving on down the road, I'll move far enough so my boat in no way interferes with any other in the anchorage, and I'll anchor in what I consider a safe manner as captain of my own boat. In most cases that will be the norm...but not always. Rest assured that if I come upon a Beneteau 42 with two anchor floats out, I will steer clear. Wayyyy clear. BTW, I do have E-X-P-E-R-I-E-N-C-E. Thanks for noticing!

[SvenG]

this thread, or parts of it, remind me of the following blog post

We were anchored about ¼ mile off shore in a spot just where the rocks and sandy beach meet. Shortly after noon, a powerboat came into the anchorage and anchored between us, and the beach! As he let out his anchor chain and drifted back he came to rest just a few feet (less than 50) in front of us. I walked up to our bow and looked over at him. He was just getting down off of the fly bridge and when he saw me I said in a normal voice (didn't have to shout), "too close".

For the non-boaters here, normal anchoring protocol is that the first boat in an anchorage has the "right of way" if he asks, you must re-anchor or move away. If he uses two anchors, so must you if you are at all close to him.

He said back to me, "I'm only staying a few hours and I ain't F#$% moving!" We are shocked! He is now so close to us, that his boat is over our anchor, so we cannot even raise our anchor to move without hitting him! As Greg stands on the foredeck looking at him, he shouts to him, "You don't have to be an A$$ H*&#$ about it!" Greg raised his arms to the side and said, "Look at the size of this bay". Frailes must be at least 2 miles wide! With the last comment he made, Greg just remained on the bow ready to fend off if his anchor or the waves pushed him back at us. The skipper then made a few rude remarks about us, and Greg did NOT say what was on his mind! After about a half hour they did move. It was a group of about 2 couples and 3 or 4 kids. During the rest of the day, they would take their dink past us as fast as they could to make a wake and try to disturb us. That night they played their music VERY loud to try to disturb us. A waste of time as there was another boat (we felt sorry for) between us, and them. They shined their spotlight onto our deck for about an hour after dark, apparently to get a rise out of us.

We have read stories and seen this action in boat training films, but have never experienced this type of rude obnoxious people.

From Nor'Sea Guenevere's Adventures, main page



-Sven

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by SvenG

I said in a normal voice (didn't have to shout), "too close".

Well, thats a great example of exactly the wrong thing to say. The evidence shows how insulting it is. Its gets a swear in response, a delayed move away, and a night where the obvious idiot harasses the "Too Close" expert.

My advice is NEVER to insult someone infront of his friends and kids.

My advice is to GO BELOW while someone is anchoring too close. Then give them time to realise it. then to wander up on deck and SIT DOWN and start having a chat with them: "Hey mate, Nice boat. I really wanted a power boat.... nice spot here... I'm new around here, does the wind swing much? Hows the holding? If your picks really firmly set we're right." After a while THEY will realise they are too close.

Remember that the blog poster isn't very right either! A boat can swing over another boats anchor. Doesnt cause harm. when you pick it up you'll find the boats don't touch, if they are in danger you fend off.
50 feet is, what, a boat length and a half? and the 'book' says anchor 3 boat lengths away...
So was their situation dangerous? Or just blocking their view of the beach? and a feeling of loss of 'space'.

So because the feeling of being impinged, not about real danger, the first guy calls the second guy out in front of his friends and children for being a useless skipper.

No wonder it got a tart response.


My Rules:

• Go below while others are anchoring
• Never say "Too Close"
• Always be fun and friendly. Their speakers are always bigger.
• Never tell a guy his dick is small.
• Never tell a guy he can't control his own boat.

Never be involved n Anchoring discussions because this thread has 92 responses where no ones opinion has waivered!

Happy Bay time to you!

Mark
PS I'll never use a kedge unless forced by dramatic events... unless in the Mediterranean! The Cheese is wonderful the wine is BLISS and the prices are sooo cheap! Ooops, I lied about that one!

[GeoPowers]

Originally Posted by Randyonr3

The origional post stated that someone came in and anchored in "his space" and being what he felt was to close.. a very common accurance.. My statement was to drop a stern anchor to ward off..
The fact is true, most weekenders not only dont carry a second anchor but if they did, dont know how to set it..
This wasnt to create a thread drift, only to state a fact..
But the fact is, If a you pull into an anchorage and there is a bow and stern line off a boat, you need to follow in suite or move on..

Dunno, I tend to agree with you on most your posts, but dropping a second hook solely to limit the amount of other boats willing to share an anchor with you seems kinda selfish. Is this what you meant? If a second anchor is truly warranted for the setting and conditions, so be it, and local customs and protocol aside if it makes sense for one boat it should for another. But if you dropped a stern anchor in a place that didn't warrant it such as a large cove, I wouldn't follow suit. I'd assume you were practicing, in a bad holding spot, paranoid, or just plain silly! But I would definitely stay well away from you, since dropping two hooks when not needed would raise a yellow flag for me.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

Well, thats a great example of exactly the wrong thing to say. The evidence shows how insulting it is. Its gets a swear in response, a delayed move away, and a night where the obvious idiot harasses the "Too Close" expert.

My advice is NEVER to insult someone infront of his friends and kids.

My advice is to GO BELOW while someone is anchoring too close. Then give them time to realise it. then to wander up on deck and SIT DOWN and start having a chat with them: "Hey mate, Nice boat. I really wanted a power boat.... nice spot here... I'm new around here, does the wind swing much? Hows the holding? If your picks really firmly set we're right." After a while THEY will realise they are too close.

Remember that the blog poster isn't very right either! A boat can swing over another boats anchor. Doesnt cause harm. when you pick it up you'll find the boats don't touch, if they are in danger you fend off.
50 feet is, what, a boat length and a half? and the 'book' says anchor 3 boat lengths away...
So was their situation dangerous? Or just blocking their view of the beach? and a feeling of loss of 'space'.

So because the feeling of being impinged, not about real danger, the first guy calls the second guy out in front of his friends and children for being a useless skipper.

No wonder it got a tart response.






My Rules:

• Go below while others are anchoring
• Never say "Too Close"
• Always be fun and friendly. Their speakers are always bigger.
• Never tell a guy his dick is small.
• Never tell a guy he can't control his own boat.

I am 100% with Mark on this one! That's the voice of experience and wisdom.

In fact, I would go further.

Look at it this way --

What did that guy at Frailles accomplish? He successfully defended his anchoring turf, fighting off the mofo in the mobo! Wow! How cool is that!

He must have felt great, after the exchange of unpleasant words (including the word "a**hole", used by himself in the direction of the other skipper), the noise, the spotlight, the wake . . . at least he didn't have to move!


Now I've spent a few nights at anchor in Frailles. That is one of the most beautiful places on earth, deserted, the harsh mountainous landscape, the beautiful sand, the jumping manta rays. The only civilization is a lonely fisherman shack. The bay itself is big enough for the entire British Navy to anchor at one time. No way could it be crowded if even every single boat in the Sea of Cortez converged on it at one time. And the holding is good everywhere (hard sand), as long as you watch the rocks off the point and in the very crotch of the bay.

Suppose you had a choice:

1. Invest 15 minutes in raising anchor and re-anchoring, even though you were there first and have every right to stay. Give up those rights with a smile, then go have a swim in the crystal clear water, have a cocktail on deck, watch the manta rays jump, watch the sun go down . . .

or

2. Avoid the 15 minutes exertion of reanchoring, and avoid the humiliation of giving up your God-given, rightful anchoring spot, and teach the idiot a lesson. But for that you get into a testosterone-fueled, expletive-laden altercation with some idiot in a mobo, with the bad feelings prolonged through the evening and expressed in various ways across the anchorage . . .


So who is the bigger idiot? Can you say "phyrric victory"? Taught him a lesson! Yeah!


A peaceful evening at anchor in a place like Frailles is one of the most precious things we may hope to be alloted in life. There will not be an infinite number of them in life. That guy just traded one of those magical evenings for the satisfaction of being right in an argument with a fool.

Idiots usually come in pairs, I've noticed.

[bill good]

politely tell them you are having trouble with your anchor dragging & what a bad night you have just had just after you knock & get a beer off them first!! they will move.

[Christian Van H]

Originally Posted by bill good

politely tell them you are having trouble with your anchor dragging & what a bad night you have just had just after you knock & get a beer off them first!! they will move.

Maybe mention that you've got all six feet of chain out and your 6 lb. plow too! Afterwards, while begging the beer, ask them if they've heard the word of the Lord lately... Bonus points for calling his wife "Kitty" and mentioning how hot his daughter is.

[cat man do]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

50 feet is, what, a boat length and a half? and the 'book' says anchor 3 boat lengths away.

The book is often very wrong and written by idiots with red ties driving a desk.


As an example,from the "book" for obtaining a boat licence in QLD

"Always attach a minimum of 2 metres of chain to the anchor rope" "If on a larger vessel use more chain"

Hmm, I have a 50 footer, I think I'll use 5 metres, that'll be heaps right?

You get the question marked as wrong if you pick the maximum length on the multiple choice test.

One of the questions regarding EPIRB was where do you need to have one.
You get it wrong if you pick everywhere.
Cant have boaters being to safe now can we.

So, I repeat, the book can be wrong
No wonder there are so many useless d*ckheads on the water in QLD

[Bash]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

My Rules:

• Go below while others are anchoring
• Never say "Too Close"
• Always be fun and friendly. Their speakers are always bigger.
• Never tell a guy his dick is small.
• Never tell a guy he can't control his own boat.

I admire your approach, Mark. It reminds me of what the stoic philosopher, Epictetus, wrote in his Handbook about dealing with petty annoyances:
When you are about to undertake some action, remind yourself what sort of action it is. If you are going out for a bath, put before your mind what commonly happens at the baths: some people splashing you, some people jostling, others being abusive, and others stealing. So you will undertake this action more securely if you say to yourself, ‘I want to have a bath and also to keep my choice [prohairesis] in harmony with nature.’ And do likewise in everything you undertake. So, if anything gets in your way when you are having your bath, you will be ready to say, ‘I wanted not only to have a bath but also to keep my choice [prohairesis] in harmony with nature; and I shall not keep it so if I get angry at what happens.’ (Handbook 4, trans. Hard)

Note: Prohairesis could alternately be translated "character," "will," or even "volition." It's a bit of all those things rolled together. In the end, prohairesis is what makes it impossible for jerks to ruin a great anchorage for you.

[boatman61]

Watch and maybe... learn something new and useful...
Watch and maybe... defend your hull..
Watch and maybe... be of some assistance..
Watch... and sometimes maybe... have a quiet chuckle at the 'Macho' 6+ftr bellowing from the helm at his little lady up front when HE stuffs it up..
(Why do so many Skippers send the woman up there to do the dirty heavy work).
When I enter an anchoage and people disappear below as I approach it seems downright unfriendly and unwelcoming... a cherry wave costs nothing...
1st thought that springs to my mind is "Snotty Arseholes"...

[senormechanico]

Originally Posted by SvenG

this thread, or parts of it, remind me of the following blog post



From Nor'Sea Guenevere's Adventures, main page



-Sven

Wouldn't surprise me if it was the same bunch that we ran into in Agua Verde.

Similar situation. The anchorage was nearly full. We were anchored over the big rock in the NW corner, but we knew we had enough depth even at low tide.
Late in the day these guys came in and after dropping their anchor within 3 feet of ours, they almost backed into us as they set their hook. When I pointed out what was going to happen, the drunks cussed us out, told US to move and then they threw beer bottles and spit at us. Eventually, they moved over about 2 boat lengths, but still were no more than a boat length at the CPA.

We received a couple of death threats that evening.

I let the rest of the anchorage know about it via VHF just in case.

[sarafina]

Originally Posted by boatman61

(Why do so many Skippers send the woman up there to do the dirty heavy work).

Cause they know we will do it better ; -)

[Hiracer]

Bulldog Cove outside Seward Alaska. Moderate amount of room. We were the only boat there.

Another drop-dead gorgeous boat with a pilot house anchors too close for comfort, but by my calculations is without overlapping swings (barely). I say nothing; just watch the boat over dinner.

After dinner, they up anchor and move closer, but on shorter scope. I could never figure out why. I say nothing again.

This is a steep slope, so an offshore force can easily pull off an anchor.

I check the boat throughout the night.

Late at night I'm peeing off my stern in the dark. They have their diesel running. Their pilot house is lit up. I can see them inside. They get up and clamber outside about the time I get done zipping up my pants.

Unfortunately by accident they put the engine in reverse on their way out. The boat comes right at me. They are busy talking to each other and don't notice. Very quickly it's too late to doing anything. I yell, but it's too late. The boat gets up to speed, the rudder flips to one side, and the boat veers missing us by about three inches going by with me looking directly into their eyes within a mere few feet. Nobody says a word.

They get control of their boat and re-anchor much further away. By early morning they are gone.

Not sure what the message or lesson is here. Just know it shook me pretty badly at the time.

[flashmutt007]

Originally Posted by Christian Van H

Maybe mention that you've got all six feet of chain out and your 6 lb. plow too! Afterwards, while begging the beer, ask them if they've heard the word of the Lord lately... Bonus points for calling his wife "Kitty" and mentioning how hot his daughter is.

OK - did a spit take reading this one.... the word of the Lord...pretty good... also reminds me that I haven't heard the knock of a single Jehovah’s Witness while out on the water.... And now back to our regularly scheduled program.

[Bash]

Given that I'm about to go anchor out for another weekend, I suppose this would be a good time to thank everyone for the spirited discussion.

I've been thinking a lot about Mark's suggestion to go below when others are anchoring nearby, but gosh, that would deprive me of my major form of weekend entertainment.

Funny how you can tell so much about cruisers by the way they drop the hook.