The Herding Instinct

[Bash]

Here's why it's usually best for boat #2 to anchor in the same manor as boat #1.

Let's say that B1 has dropped 30 meters of chain in a tight cove. B2 comes in, drops the hook 30 meters away from B1, and lets out 30 meters of chain. In this instance, there's no problem if the wind shifts and B1 swings toward B2, because at that point B2 will swing as well, and will still be 30 meters away from B1. Where this would not work is if B2 came in, dropped the hook ten meters away from B1, and then added a stern line. Now, when B1 swings, she hits B2.

Here's why you need to know how much rode the other boat has out:

B1 comes into a mid-size anchorage and lets out 100 meters (!) of chain right in the middle of the anchorage. B2 comes along and drops the hook 50 meters away from B1, and then lets out 30 meters of chain, which is just enough for 4-1 scope at high tide. Now, when B1 swings she's going to run B2 down. (This, by the way, is why we look down on those who put out more scope than necessary to anchor safely.)

[Christian Van H]

Originally Posted by Randyonr3

And there you go, By me dropping two anchors, you have just moved somewhere around 250 feet away from me.. A foot ball field is 300 feet..
I can live happy at 250 feet..

The first thing I would notice is that some dude has two PITA anchor floats out, and why in the hell is he anchored both bow and stern? IMHO...

[Randyonr3]

Originally Posted by Christian Van H

The first thing I would notice is that some dude has two PITA anchor floats out, and why in the hell is he anchored both bow and stern? IMHO...

There are hundreds of reason, and more often than not, I double up..
I'll give you just one, and "Bash" will know exactlly where this is..
Lets go the China Camp, north of San Francisco Bay on San Pablo Bay..
A wide open anchorage with at least a mile wide..
The down side, there is a tidal flow that runs just offshore from the peteluma River flowing by at 5 to 6 knots each way, unless you can get in close to shore or in the cove north of China Camp around the park and the pier..
The water is shallow there and only goes out to 10 to 15 feet for about 300 yards, putting you right in the middle of the tidal flow..
But, a good look at the charts show a chanel that winds up close to the shore, in the lea of the bluffs north of China Camp, almost to the park and within the cove and out of the way of the 5 to 6 knot current.. and just 50 yards off shore.. BUT the channel is only about 20 to 30 feet wide..
Anchor in the channel with both for and aft anchors will keep you out of the extreme tidal flow, centered in the channel, in the lea of the bluffs and only 50 yards from shore.. snuggled up in the cove at the park..
But for what ever reason,
The first person in the anchorage sets the terms of how you should anchor..

[Christian Van H]

Sounds like a good set-up for that anchorage. I would skip the floats if at all possible, and in anything much wider I would use a Bahamian moor. I would like to suggest an amendment to your rule here and add: The first person into the anchorage sets the terms of how you should anchor...as long as you deem the method to be proper seamanship.

[Palarran]

Originally Posted by Hud3

When I first started cruising, I'd get upset when other boats anchored too close abeam or over my anchor. After a while, though, I discovered that it really didn't matter all that much. In spite of my worst fears, we were never bumped in the middle of the night, and I was always able to get my anchor up in the morning without incident. So, I learned to relax and go with the flow. Much more in tune with the spirit of cruising. And I ended up making friends with some of those closeby anchorers.

Hud, I like your response best so far. It's hard for me to sometime get my island attitude. All the threats of revenge, yelling, worrying, won't work as well as a smile and a quick word. I really find it hard to believe that if you hopped in your dingy, talked to your new neighbor and informed him that he is over your anchor or in your swing circle, he wouldn't move. As far as herding, I guess the first thing that came to mind is "As a matter of fact, I do on the Ocean"

My quick story for anchoring was actually in Gustavia trying to Med moor up against the sea wall. I had a 46' cat and the wind was hitting it abeam. I just couldn't get the boat to swing into the wall (I could now fwiw). So, I ended up dropping my anchor over the top of the 100' cruiser next to me. The captain came to the bow and calmly informed me of my error and I explained that I'd never moored like this and to please be patient. He was great, helped me position my anchor correctly then hopped in his dink to push me to the wall. It was really amateur on my part but consummately professional on his.

[SvenG]

I can't believe I'm reading this exchange here.

Safe boating rules/conventions are not arbitrarily cooked up by lawyers or committees. They have evolved over literally 100s and 100s and 100s of years of real Sailors figuring what actually works.


-Sven

[Randyonr3]

Originally Posted by Christian Van H

Sounds like a good set-up for that anchorage. I would skip the floats if at all possible, and in anything much wider I would use a Bahamian moor. I would like to suggest an amendment to your rule here and add: The first person into the anchorage sets the terms of how you should anchor...as long as you deem the method to be proper seamanship.

Didnt write the rules, just follow them, and my anchoring skills have worked for 40+ years now, dont think I'm going to change any time soon.. The "Floats" are attached to tag lines to pull the anchor out in reverse if it hangs up.......

"And as long as you deem the method to be proper seamanship"
I have to ask, who in the ****, do you think you are,!

[Bash]

Originally Posted by SvenG

Safe boating rules/conventions are not arbitrarily cooked up by lawyers or committees. They have evolved over literally 100s and 100s and 100s of years of real Sailors figuring what actually works.

They have evolved, yes, but they continue to evolve as well. This discussion--indeed, this forum--are a niche in which this evolution takes place.

More and more people come into sailing in non-traditional ways. The accountant going through a mid-life crisis suddenly decides to cross an ocean, and begins by taking a basic keelboat class. He has never tied a bowline, he will never handle a sextant, and yet he's computer-savvy enough to google his way to Cruisers Forum and lurk awhile. He stumbles onto this thread, and for the first time learns that there is a code of anchoring etiquette.

Wow. Great. Right?

And maybe, just maybe, he'll have an idea how we might do it better.

[SvenG]

Originally Posted by Bash

And maybe, just maybe, he'll have an idea how we might do it better.

I'm sure he thinks so, as he sits behind his keyboard. The problem is that in his ignorance he doesn't realize that by breaking accepted convention and disregarding the anchoring choice of the first boat, he has now turned a three-boat safe harbor into one that can only accommodate two.



-Sven

[Christian Van H]

Originally Posted by Randyonr3

Didnt write the rules, just follow them, and my anchoring skills have worked for 40+ years now, dont think I'm going to change any time soon.. The "Floats" are attached to tag lines to pull the anchor out in reverse if it hangs up.......

"And as long as you deem the method to be proper seamanship"
I have to ask, who in the ****, do you think you are,!

Not quite sure where this comes from Randy, but if you directed that tirade at me I'll surely answer. I'm the captain of MY boat, been anchoring 38 years now, and if I sail into a harbor and see the first boat there anchored in what I deem an unsafe manor, I'm sure as **** not gonna copy him. (See, I can curse too!) BTW, I know what your "Floats" are for, and I believe they are 50 times more likely to snag someone else's prop than to be needed to pull your anchor out backwards. Now, have I broken any of your rules?

[SvenG]

Originally Posted by Christian Van H

if I sail into a harbor and see the first boat there anchored in what I deem an unsafe manor, I'm sure as **** not gonna copy him.

What are you referring to as the unsafe aspect ? Two anchors vs. one ? If that's your objection you are obliged to move on as the first boat sets the rules.



-Sven

[Christian Van H]

Sven, do you seriously want me to list EVERY possible unsafe anchoring method for EVERY condition? What are you getting at? Of course I know I would have to move on...I wouldn't want to be near a boat that could drag or do damage. I would just move away. To state that this boat would claim an entire anchorage because no one else wanted to anchor like him is bizarre... or a really good trick!

[Jim Cate]

G'Day All,

I really didn't want to get involved in this, but here goes...

The concept of "first in gets to choose" only makes sense in small or very crowded anchorages. In more open areas, or where the numbers are smaller, all the second (or nth) boat needs to do is anchor far enough away from the rest that his swinging circle can't possibly overlap with his predecessors. I am not aware of any so-called rule, gentlemens agreement or SOP that denies one that privilege.

An example: the anchorage behind Double Island Point, Qld, Australia.
This is an open roadstead anchorage, often used to await a favorable tide at the nearby Wide Bay Bar crossing. It is vast in area, but suffers from a refracted swell that reaches the anchored boats, lying to the prevailing SE winds, on their beams and causing a miserable rolling (even in catamarans, I'm told!). So, we often use a stern anchor, located where we can use it to pull the boat around to lie stern into the swell. Do I think that if I am the first into the place that all others must follow suit? Hell no... as long as they go far enough away so that we don't have conflicting swinging circles. Frankly, I think that if one requested a typical Aussie cruiser to conform to your (to them) bizzare anchoring method, you would be laughed out of the place... or worse!

So, instead of lofty ideals of centuries of tradition, I think that common sense should (and usually does) prevail. Common sense, however, does not seem to prevent folks from anchoring unsafely in a variety of manners. Here again, distance is a good idea!

Cheers,

Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II lying Lake Macquarie, NSW, Oz

[Bash]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

. Here again, distance is a good idea!

I'm sure we can all agree on this, at least.

[Stillraining]

No need to get hostile folks...I sort of feel responsible for the thread drift and that was not my intention.

I was just trying to get my mind wrapped around the concept and Jim pretty much hit the nail on the head as far as Im concerned.

Randy , in you example it makes perfect sense and everyone should do the same there...but in a wide open anchorage you your self agreed as long as Im far enough away it doesnt matter...And I have said before if Im informed there will be need for more room for more boats I will surly oblige and set a second anchor...

Im basically a lazy sailor...I will only set one if it suits the situation, but am totally open to get along and provide room for others....shoot I have never rafted up before. ( Well I guess I did once ) Im open to that too!..