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Old 22-02-2013, 20:06   #256
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Re: Sarca Excel

cfarrar,

Nice summary - the recommendation is that it should be a minimum of one size larger and I tend to think (when thinking of other things) that minimum is not enough.

An alternative view might be, rather than carry that whopping great monster about on the bow.

For mud and sand, where surface area might be the issue - why not carry a Fortress, they have low weight for monstrous surface area, easy to deploy, stores well. For weed, I have an open mind on whether bigger is better, why not carry the stockless anchor, see the current Supreme thread and carry that recommended (USL code) sized anchor as per normal.

If you choose a style and then go two sizes bigger, what do you do about back up? (one surely would not go to Newfoundland with only one anchor?). And if you feel the need for the '2 sizes big' you presumably have the same philosophy for the spare (or when you lose the primary you'll need abandon the cruise) If your USL size is 25kg - then 2 sizes up is 40kg? As a spare its difficult to store unless you have 2 bow rollers), its difficult to get to the bow roller (from wherever you store it) and connecting it up and deploying it would be a nightmare.

My example at the end of my post suggests a 15kg anchor if loaded (I accept its probably the ideal seabed) will develop a holding capacity of 5,000kg - this seems to leave an awful lot in reserve for less ideal substrates (for which you also have the Fortress). It also suggests that in a Storm with wind in a constant direction - it will simply bury itself, further (and a nightmare to retrieve!).

One of my fears would be that under normal conditions you simply cannot set a '2 sizes bigger' with the engine of a yacht that should be using the recommended USL size. By set I mean bury the fluke and most of the shank. Consequently under normal conditions your anchor is ready to fall over, rather than shuffle round in a wind or tide change. It might stay set, it might re-set by itself - but there again - it might fall over, catch a bit of seaweed and never re-set. I'm not denying the value of as much anchor as you can get, whether that's one big or 2 smaller ones, in a breeze - the weakness is in normal conditions, anchored in a tidal estuary.

I agree with you that 5kg is neither here nor there, so to upsize from 15kg to 20kg is not an issue, but upsizing from 20kg to 33kg is slightly different and then 33kg to 55kg?

Its an Excel thread, so it will be interesting to read views from people who actually use them - but it will be equally interesting to read views from people with other 'modern' or efficient anchors. (I'm not wanting to get into a debate over 'modern' - make you own interpretation, I'll respect it without question!)
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Old 22-02-2013, 20:15   #257
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Re: Sarca Excel

Kettlewell

In the 'thin sand over hard rock' situation I'm guessing surface area is not the issue (as you are not getting any penetration), weight is not an issue as if its hard rock - nothing will penetrate. What you do need is a sharp, strong, toe and lots of patience to find the place to secure the toe (and then be able to get it out again!)

Anecdotally - a common complaint of Fortress is retrieval after a blow (which might be easier the bigger they are!)
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Old 22-02-2013, 20:23   #258
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Re: Sarca Excel

Quote:
weight is not an issue as if its hard rock - nothing will penetrate. What you do need is a sharp, strong, toe and lots of patience to find the place to secure the toe (and then be able to get it out again!)
What I meant was we literally hung on the weight of the anchors and chain with no real grip on the bottom. I walked the anchor around on the bottom for an hour looking for any little crevice to hook into, but couldn't find anything more than the slightest depression, and the sand was only a couple of inches deep. But, there was no other choice for the night at that point so I let out a lot of chain, and put out all my other anchors on as much chain as I could. I think the very sharp tips of the Fortress anchors provided some clawing action. Hung that way with wind maybe in the 20s for a couple of nights. It was one anchorage where I wouldn't have minded having something like a 75 or 150 lb. fisherman anchor.
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Old 22-02-2013, 20:32   #259
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Re: Sarca Excel

There is one other consideration one should take onbaord with new genaration anchor designs when specking a larger anchor.

The winch companies in Australia and NZ are doing a roaring trade since the launch of the concave designs,whether or not you brake the anchor out before retrievel, your winch will have a battle on its hands as not five kilo but somtimes many more depending on anchor size will load it up.

So if you go from a twenty kilo CQR to a 40 KILO CQR fine you have now have 40 KG, if you up grade to a 40 Kilo concave design, think about possibly another twenty Kilo depending on what you are anchoring in.

This is the reason so many years back now we went from the origional concave Sarca to convex, also for many other reasons.

Regards Rex.

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Old 22-02-2013, 20:34   #260
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Re: Sarca Excel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kettlewell View Post
What I meant was we literally hung on the weight of the anchors and chain with no real grip on the bottom. I walked the anchor around on the bottom for an hour looking for any little crevice to hook into, but couldn't find anything more than the slightest depression, and the sand was only a couple of inches deep. But, there was no other choice for the night at that point so I let out a lot of chain, and put out all my other anchors on as much chain as I could. I think the very sharp tips of the Fortress anchors provided some clawing action. Hung that way with wind maybe in the 20s for a couple of nights. It was one anchorage where I wouldn't have minded having something like a 75 or 150 lb. fisherman anchor.
Not an environment to engender a decent night's sleep, anchor alarms

You were suggesting that a 40kg anchor lifted by hand might be taxing, it has been said by people posting here that they like to see their anchors retrieved with a huge clod of seabed (as it shows the anchor was well set). + 5m-10m of chain. 'Taxing' would not come into it

Just seen Congo's post!
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Old 22-02-2013, 21:17   #261
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Re: Sarca Excel

Yes well the larger surface area offerd buy a concave surface to create huge holding power will allways have its draw backs, we have found with our anchor technology that shank to holding surface area must be well calculated. This is if you also want a strong design to succesfully achieve certification as Super High Holding Power.

Penetratration regardless of substrate type is the key to you anchor staying put,further the ability of our design to cut through rather than scoop is why we have some very happy customers, I am sure we will also have some that simply do not like the excel after trialing, but you get that. Be reasured if you are not happy for what ever reason you would be entitled to a full refund if it didn't work for you.

Depending on the weed type and mass will influence the set of any anchor design, with one exception, some designs will handle it far better than others.

Regards Rex.

CEO of Anchor Right Australia.
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Old 23-02-2013, 11:10   #262
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Re: Sarca Excel

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Broken electric windlasses were among the most common repair/replacement items in Cartagena, right after refrigeration. One disadvantage of the extra-large anchor is how do you get the darn thing up after the windlass is broken? We met a couple on a large trawler that had lost their windlass and they couldn't manhandle their main anchor by themselves. A bunch of cruisers helped them haul it up one last time in the San Blas and they were off, hopefully non-stop, to Shelter Bay marina to search for a repair. If they had to drop the hook they had one shot at it then would have to cut it free.
Well, that's why we got a manual/electric windlass. Given the (typical) presence of loads of line and heavy winches and spare blocks aboard, I can't see any situation short of a shank-bending snag (like the anchor is buried in an uncharted wreck or under some other vast obstruction) where we couldn't employ mechanical advantage to get the chain and anchor up.

Our boat is metal and heavy. So's the ground tackle. Muscle is marginal in such a scenario, but assuming you have motored up to a near vertical scope and you have the usual winches to use, I can only see a few situations where you COULDN'T bring up the anchor.

The windlass is only to assist lowering and raising chain. Why you would use it as a way to move the boat to the anchor is unclear to me. But then I've seen chain left on gypsies while anchored, so I guess anything is possible.

I freely admit I haven't enough anchoring time to confirm this, however, but I assume we are talking about pure inertia and not "I used the windlass and not the boat's momentum to break out a buried anchor".
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Old 23-02-2013, 11:59   #263
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Re: Sarca Excel

Quote:
I freely admit I haven't enough anchoring time to confirm this, however, but I assume we are talking about pure inertia and not "I used the windlass and not the boat's momentum to break out a buried anchor".
Whatever cruisers are doing they are destroying their electric windlasses. I suspect some of it might be that they live in a wet place on the boat and eventually seals wear out, etc. I've heard of some folks reporting they woke up in the middle of the night to the sound of the windlass pulling in the chain, and when they ran up on deck they discovered it had turned itself on.
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Old 23-02-2013, 13:31   #264
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Old 23-02-2013, 16:36   #265
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Re: Sarca Excel

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Originally Posted by Kettlewell View Post
Whatever cruisers are doing they are destroying their electric windlasses. I suspect some of it might be that they live in a wet place on the boat and eventually seals wear out, etc. I've heard of some folks reporting they woke up in the middle of the night to the sound of the windlass pulling in the chain, and when they ran up on deck they discovered it had turned itself on.
Seals, conformal spray, proper (crimped, heat shrunk) connections...and put a cover on it... pretty simple SOP for something kept in a salt spray shower with a bunch of amps running through it!
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Old 25-02-2013, 10:35   #266
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Re: Sarca Excel

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