Sarca Excel

[downunder]

Opps GMac,

I note you are in NZ not USA.

[JonJo]

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post1157200

Do not tell Noelex or Cotemar, or even Morgan's Cloud

[Cotemar]

Originally Posted by JonJo

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post1157200

Do not tell Noelex or Cotemar, or even Morgan's Cloud

I get what they are saying, but isn't a Stockless Anchor for large boats?
The Stockless Anchor for smaller boats is a Fortress or Danforth.

I do not think I would be using a Fortress or Danforth in weeds

[Mr B]

Originally Posted by Cotemar

I get what they are saying, but isn't a Stockless Anchor for large boats?
The Stockless Anchor for smaller boats is a Fortress or Danforth.

I do not think I would be using a Fortress or Danforth in weeds

The fortress or danforth can get a rock in the Vee and will not drop down and reset,
Experienced it,

[JonJo]

Try this:

Industrial Engineers and Spring Makers - Anchors

There is at least one variant on the theme but I do not know who makes them. But the 'Stockless' referred to is of this 'sort'. One would think they have limited applicability, so not much use in sand or mud. But very popular in South Australia.

[Snowpetrel]

Can vouch for the popularity of those anchors over in South Australia, every second boat seems to have a marsh stockless, and most of the rest have a fishermans. It's the first time I have seen a flash 50 foot motor yacht sporting a large fisherman anchor!

They are well regarded and most people I talked to said they worked better than anything else in the weedy bottom.

I did notice a few next generation anchors creeping onto bows though, but the only person I talked to with one had recently had it drag and was replacing it with a marsh stockless...

[GMac]

'Stockless' is a very generic term, it's a bit like saying 'Car'.

They are quite one dimensional anchor, generally speaking, especially so on smaller boats. Ships and so on not so as they are often lots of tonnes each followed by lots more tonnes of chain along with they don't tend to anchor in random areas.

It's very common to see areas or specific sorts of vessels using specific one dimensional anchors. Some smaller production boats do to a degree, mind you that's sometimes to allow for real important things like the fitting in of the 4th flat screen TV.

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by GMac

'Stockless' is a very generic term, it's a bit like saying 'Car'.

In this case I was referring to the very specific Marsh stockless anchor manufactured by industrial springs in Adelaide. As I said, a well regarded anchor for the difficult conditions around Adelaide.

I doubt If a more multibottom next gen anchor, no matter how good can match a purpose designed "one bottom" type in it's favorite grounds. If it can come reasonably close that is good enough for me.

[Mr B]

I have my Bus coming from the USA, So I have been tracking the 2 ships that it is travelling on, Its currently on the Bishu Highway sailing to Brisbane from Yokohama,

This ship was moored in Tokyo Bay for about 3 days, I was quite surprised how much the anchor had dragged on it, while it was moored there,

I got a close up of the AIS positioning of the boat over the 3 days, and I could see its dragging track, and it was quite a fair way, in a few different directions,

so even the big ships drag anchors.

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by Mr B

so even the big ships drag anchors.

Yes, I have only dragged a ships anchor once, 240m container ship "NZ Pacific" outside Auckland in a decent NE, she sheered and started dragging towards rangitoto Is. Unfortunately the cable was girt across the bow and the windlass couldn't bring it in. Thruster and engines couldn't bring us head to wind. Tugs were on there way (for berthing), second anchor was ready to drop. A timely Lull after half an hour or so enabled the bow thruster to push the head around and the anchor came up. Tense moments.

The cruise ship Orions anchor started dragging in Commonweath Bay, Antarctica while I was halfway through a nice dinner aboard. We had to leave and go back to a very cold Snow Petrel, securely sitting on her 50lb fishermans with 5 shore lines in boat harbour, Cape Denison

Then again I have sat outside Sydney in a big sea wondering how the ships anchor and chain could possibly hold, engines on 15 minutes notice, hand hovering over the ER phone all watch... but hold it did.

A fool trusts his anchors completely no matter how big they are.

Hopefully something like a Sarca Excel will be a big improvement over my CQR. But truth be told, athough I have had many problems getting CQR's to set, I have only once had it drag on me, and even then I was sleeping very lightly with dingy on deck, 2 reefs in the main and ready for sea (Just as well!) This was around Prime Seal Island, Flinders, Shocking holding at the best of times.

[Teeto]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

Can vouch for the popularity of those anchors over in South Australia, every second boat seems to have a marsh stockless, and most of the rest have a fishermans. It's the first time I have seen a flash 50 foot motor yacht sporting a large fisherman anchor!

They are well regarded and most people I talked to said they worked better than anything else in the weedy bottom.

I did notice a few next generation anchors creeping onto bows though, but the only person I talked to with one had recently had it drag and was replacing it with a marsh stockless...

Exactly our experience in South Australia. Off to the shop next week to get a marsh Stockless after repeatedly failing to set our Manson Supreme in weed over this summer. Bit of a shock after 6000 cruising miles in 2 years with total success holding with the MS.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by JonJo

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post1157200

Do not tell Noelex or Cotemar, or even Morgan's Cloud

I did post in that thread. This my answer.

Originally Posted by noelex 77

Performance in weed is probably one of the most difficult aspects to assess. When I dive on anchors in thick weedy locations the anchors are very hard to find. When you do find them, even when you dive down, its hard to judge how well they are buried in the substrate rather than just hidden by weed.

When backing down even at full throttle we don't put much force on the anchor and thick weed will often hold full reverse just on the weed alone. This will fail when the wind picks up.

There is also a "scale effect". Anchor manufacturers would like you to believe large and small anchors of the same design on appropriately sized boats will perform identically. With weed this is not the case. The weed roots do not change size. A large heavy anchor on a large boat will cut through weed that a smaller lighter anchor of the same design on the smaller boat will not penetrate.

Finally the weed tends to be inconsistent both in a single anchorage and between different areas.

So be careful with reports on weed performance of anchors.

For what it's worth I think the best anchor in weed is the fisherman and its various derivatives. The second best is the Manson Supreme / Rocna. Others would rate the Spade as best or second best, personally I think the Spade is only fair in weed, but this illustrates the difficulty getting good consistent data on weed performance.

At best thick weed is bit of lottery. Set an anchor alarm and be suspicious of the set, particularly in winds above 30k which is where an anchor holding just in weed, rather than set properly in the substrate will let go.

I don't carry a fisherman anchor, the limitations of this anchor means it does not quite justify its superior performance in weed in my circumstances. Try your MS and report back. We like a good anchor thread on CF

If you confine your cruising to weedy area with a firm substrate underneath a fisherman type anchor is a great choice. I have not used the Marsh stock less but it looks to combine the very small fluke area that is a characteristic of the fisherman's and what makes it penetrate weed so well with a design that is easier to store on the bow roller.
The difficulty is that this sort of anchor works very poorly in softer substrates, and needs to be very large.

For a long distance cruising boat its not desirable or practical to switch anchors. This is one of the reasons I am advocate of going for an oversized anchor. When cutting through weed a large size helps. Above 40kg or so new generation anchors will perform reasonably in thickish weed, especially if the a couple sizes bigger than recommended.

A specialised weed anchor is still useful to have, but a very large fisherman's is a bugger to store and deploy.

The Marsh stock less looks a possible alternative, but at over $800 for the recommended size for my boat (which looks way too small to me) it is a very expensive alternative compared to the very cheap fisherman type anchors.

[JonJo]

Noelex,

I copied this from the Manson Supreme thread.

I realise a Supreme is not a Rocna, but Cotemar will simply tell you its a concave with a roll bar - so they will perform exactly the same way.

quote

'On each unsuccessful set the anchor comes up with a medium sized wad of weed. It seems to dig in only a small way then pull out a clump of weed. We worry that even when it seems to hold under sustained revs that it is unlikely to reset with a wind change. Usually it just skids over the weed with no purchase at all.
We dive to check and find that when it sets it is where the weed is a bit thinner (luck). Then it digs in better, but reset would be almost impossible if it pulled out with thick weed all around.'

unquote

The quote is not actually questioning the setting capability but the re-setting capability.

Maybe you do not have weed where you are, but many places do - not thick impenetrable weed, but thin weed - in which many anchors will work, including a Supreme, Fortress, Spade, Excel. Such areas are not 'no-go' because many anchors will work.

But the evidence presented (and its not unique) is that even in less weedy areas convex anchors will hold that weed in the fluke bowl - and reset is impossible (without cleaning it out). We now have an anchor, oversize (based on your recommendations) with an oversize lump of seabed in it. Good thing we invested in the monster winch to lift it. We are of course doing this at the change of tide, 2am,how precisely does one clean it? Now I appreciate that your suggestion that bigger anchors will secure better might be correct - but the fact it breaks into something that a smaller anchor does not suggests, to me, it will hold that clod longer too.

I fully appreciate that if you restrict yourself to nice clean sandy seabeds this is not an issue.

[noelex 77]

Anchors like the Rocna and MS certainly pull up some mud/sand on retrieval. If its been windy it sometimes looks like half the seabed is coming up.
"Are you trying to make the anchorage deeper" has been shouted in jest from other boats sharing the anchorage.

If I have not had chance to dive on the anchor, I always find it reassurg to see a whole lot of bottom come up, as it shows the anchor was deeply buried.

However, the premise that this will cause problems when resetting is flawed. If you dive and watch modern anchors reset with a change in wind direction they remain buried. They swivel or shuffle around. They do not break out drag across the seabed and reset.

In any substrate once an anchor starts dragging the chance of it catching is slim. In weedy locations a dragging anchor will be retrieved with a ball of weed that is large enough that it can obscure the whole anchor. This is true of all anchors, even the humble CQR.

When setting the anchor in weed its very important to avoid putting any pressure on the anchor untill a reasonsable scope is reached. If the boat is moving backwards faster than the anchor chain is deployed it will never set in weed. It's also very beneficial to have an anchor that sets quickly, which is one of the major improvements in the new generation anchors.


The modern concave anchors are a great improvement in weedy conditions over the older convex anchors. I have not used the Excel so I cannot comment if this is an exception to the rule.

[kjames]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

Can vouch for the popularity of those anchors over in South Australia, every second boat seems to have a marsh stockless, ...

Well I’m from South Australia too - got an Admiralty Anchor with a stock, but I’m looking for an anchor that performs in a range of subsurface conditions. I’m pretty sold on the Sarca (not alone in my circle either) – still trying to decide between the Super and Excel. I will keep the Admiralty as my second anchor. CQR will get packed away.