Rocna Size

[Auspicious]

I feel somewhat badly for Peter and Craig Smith. I know many people where put off by Craig's aggressive marketing style. That notwithstanding, Peter designed a great anchor that Craig and Peter built carefully and as designed. To my knowledge no one credibly questioned the performance or quality of the anchor.

Holdfast has certainly managed to run that positive record into the ground rather quickly.

I have two Rocna anchors on Auspicious: a Canadian built 25 and a NZ built 25 Stowable. I'm happy with their performance and am confident they were made as specified. It saddens me that one can't purchase a Rocna today with the same confidence.

[Kettlewell]

I hope other marine companies are watching this thread, and I suspect many are. I've worked for several successful marine companies that would always try to make it right for the customer, whatever it took, irregardless of who screwed up. I think back to the owner of a boatyard where I worked briefly who said something like, "If it isn't good enough for me, it isn't good enough." Meaning that everything we did in that boatyard had to be good enough for the owner's own family to go out on that boat. Luckily, there are still many marine companies that adhere to this principle, and those are the ones I try to do business with.

[S/V Alchemy]

Originally Posted by sarafina

My god. Aren't you guys tired of this topic by now?

Yeah I know, it's an anchor thread what do I expect? For anyone to actually change their opinion?

; -)

*now where IS that dead horse....*

It's not dead. It would be, but you've been beating it with a "new" Rocna.

[S/V Alchemy]

Originally Posted by Kettlewell

I hope other marine companies are watching this thread, and I suspect many are. I've worked for several successful marine companies that would always try to make it right for the customer, whatever it took, irregardless of who screwed up. I think back to the owner of a boatyard where I worked briefly who said something like, "If it isn't good enough for me, it isn't good enough." Meaning that everything we did in that boatyard had to be good enough for the owner's own family to go out on that boat. Luckily, there are still many marine companies that adhere to this principle, and those are the ones I try to do business with.

I think the speed with which senior representatives of various companies have registered and replied in this thread and its predecessors on YBW, Sailnet, Anything-sailing, etc. confirm that it's indeed of ongoing interest.

I also think that a lot of people in the industry made their products "as designed" and wish to stand by them with comprehensive warranties.

Lastly, like the Smith clan, a lot of these anchor firms are relatively small and family-owned, and where the owners actively use their own products, and so I have a fair bit of confidence that the "not good/I wouldn't use it" equation is largely solved.

Obviously, this is not always the case, but I think if you look at what the experts are using: the police, the Coast Guards/Navy, the working vessels, etc., you have an implicit endorsement of some designs over others. This does not mean other designs are bad, or even not the best choice for individual situations, as when the preferred anchor doesn't fit the bow roller or can be easily handled on deck, but it does mean that there are reasons to choose a particular design by those, unlike we recreational sailors, who KNOW and EXPECT to anchor in nasty conditions, that being the reason they are frequently aboard in the first place.

So, you can learn one set of facts by looking at sailboat/powerboat bows and seeing what people like, and you can learn another by looking at Coast Guard or SAR boats or the smaller sort of commercial tug or water taxi. I consider the latter observations probably of more value.

[drewke07]

How do you know where your Rocna was manufactured? My 55 kilo has no "made in China" marking I can find, only a "designed in NZ" plate glued to the shank.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by S/V Alchemy

So, you can learn one set of facts by looking at sailboat/powerboat bows and seeing what people like, and you can learn another by looking at Coast Guard or SAR boats or the smaller sort of commercial tug or water taxi. I consider the latter observations probably of more value.

With all respect for these professionals (save perhaps the water taxi folks whose professionalism is often questionable), I don't think that they are good models for our sort of anchoring.

First, the examples that you offer are far larger vessels than typical cruising sailboats, and this alone changes the parameters of anchoring. Then, they seldom if ever anchor overnight or for a week, leaving the vessel untended or without an anchor watch. They typically have large crews, and will indeed have someone on watch 24/7, not sleeping belowdecks trusting in their ground tackle. This changes the requirements for anchor selection.

IMO, for guidance in anchor selection walking the marina docks is also a poor choice... the folks resting there are clearly not anchored much of the time. Instead, a look around anchorages where long term cruisers hang out will reveal what is being used successfully in the real world by folks who use their anchors in anger on a continuing basis. And what you will find there is a variety of anchor types, supporting the idea that most of the forms that we know do work reasonably well. I have noted a steady increase in the percentage of "new generation" anchor types over the past few years, a fact that may be related to marketing or possibly to a real improvement in performance. One common factor, at least in the South Pacific where we have been cruising, is that nearly 100% use all chain rodes.

In our case, we have over the years moved from a CQR to a Bruce to a larger Bruce to a Manson Supreme . In each case there was a perceived improvement in anchor performance.

Finally, on the Rocna issue... I suspect that despite their malfeasance in manufacturing standards, the Rocna anchors will perform adequately well and not fall apart. However, their sleazy marketing methods mean that I will not buy their products.

Cheers,

[CarlF]

It's always good when Gmac "weighs" in on an anchor thread. His perspective is always helpful.

I disagree a bit with his view on people "trusting" companies. My approach is to give companies the benefit of the doubt. I even accept that a little excess optimism creeps into marketing statements. I wish every manufacturer firmly believed that he makes the the best damn widget in the world and says it.

But I believe that the "benefit of the doubt" rule runs the other way the moment a manufacturer shows he doesn't deserve it. That's why Rocna is in so much trouble - at least in my book.

I also make allowances that bad things happen to even the best companies. A cheating supplier, a bad employee, or just bad luck can trip any business. A company that responds quickly, transparently and "over the top" to fix the problem can end up with a better reputation than if nothing had gone wrong. That clearly hasn't happened in this situation.

And I'd like to second (or third) the compliments to West Marine in the US. While it's easy to kick West, they have a really tough business running brick and mortar stores in the era of internet discounting. They somehow hang in there while continuing with cruiser friendly practices like stocking stainless hardware at reasonable prices. Where else are you going to find one 4" 5/16 stainless bolt on a Sunday to replace the one you dropped over the side? Or will take back an anchor without expecting you to pay for shipping.

Carl

[S/V Alchemy]

Jim Cate said: With all respect for these professionals (save perhaps the water taxi folks whose professionalism is often questionable), I don't think that they are good models for our sort of anchoring.

Possibly, but I think they are one piece of the puzzle. I was thinking of patrol boats/police marine units, which are often aluminum and definitely are smaller and lighter than my steel 40 footer.

Regardless, I like to see what EVERYONE has and assign informal "weightings" in my mind, so to speak, in order to judge whether their case for choosing a particular design matches my own.

IMO, for guidance in anchor selection walking the marina docks is also a poor choice... the folks resting there are clearly not anchored much of the time. Instead, a look around anchorages where long term cruisers hang out will reveal what is being used successfully in the real world by folks who use their anchors in anger on a continuing basis. And what you will find there is a variety of anchor types, supporting the idea that most of the forms that we know do work reasonably well.

True. I don't "get" SS anchors, for instance, and wouldn't have one, and I don't see them in any anchorage that's actually got anchors down.

I have noted a steady increase in the percentage of "new generation" anchor types over the past few years, a fact that may be related to marketing or possibly to a real improvement in performance. One common factor, at least in the South Pacific where we have been cruising, is that nearly 100% use all chain rodes.

Same here. Perhaps what we are seeing (although I have yet to go to the S. Pacific!) is not only an evolution in anchors for the yachtsman, but an evolution in technique and approach, the people who choose to stick with older designs and older techniques being flushed out of the mix, so to speak, as they swallow the anchor (no pun intended) or go up on the reef due to a certain inflexability in technique.

In our case, we have over the years moved from a CQR to a Bruce to a larger Bruce to a Manson Supreme . In each case there was a perceived improvement in anchor performance.

Do you still carry the older primary anchors as "back up"?

Finally, on the Rocna issue... I suspect that despite their malfeasance in manufacturing standards, the Rocna anchors will perform adequately well and not fall apart. However, their sleazy marketing methods mean that I will not buy their products.

This is also my conclusion. If I won an old Rocna (NZ/Cdn.) in a card game, I'd happily use it, but I decline to give the new regime my money, irrespective of their other qualities.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by S/V Alchemy

Possibly, but I think they are one piece of the puzzle. I was thinking of patrol boats/police marine units, which are often aluminum and definitely are smaller and lighter than my steel 40 footer.

OK on the size involved, but really, do these sorts of boats ever really anchor in the sense that a cruising boat does?


True. I don't "get" SS anchors, for instance, and wouldn't have one, and I don't see them in any anchorage that's actually got anchors down.[/B]

OOHHH, but they are so pretty, and what better means of conspicuous consumption than a really pretty thing that you can afford to stick in the mud?

B]
Same here. Perhaps what we are seeing (although I have yet to go to the S. Pacific!) is not only an evolution in anchors for the yachtsman, but an evolution in technique and approach, the people who choose to stick with older designs and older techniques being flushed out of the mix, so to speak, as they swallow the anchor (no pun intended) or go up on the reef due to a certain inflexability in technique.[/B]


You have a point there!

B]
Do you still carry the older primary anchors as "back up"?[/B]

We still carry the CQR... not because of any ideological belief, but because we were able to sell off the Bruces!


Finally, on the Rocna issue... I suspect that despite their malfeasance in manufacturing standards, the Rocna anchors will perform adequately well and not fall apart. However, their sleazy marketing methods mean that I will not buy their products.

This is also my conclusion. If I won an old Rocna (NZ/Cdn.) in a card game, I'd happily use it, but I decline to give the new regime my money, irrespective of their other qualities.

So, Alchemy, I think that we are basically on the same page here!

Cheers,

Jim

[57guy]

WOW!!!
I finely got to the end of this thread, but it was worth it. I was getting ready to buy a Rocna, but now, will not consider it. Will not buy from a Company that advertise one thing and delivers another.
I read all 35 pages of this thread, because I was hoping to see a reply from Rocna

[sabray]

The best anchor I have.was attached to 5/16 chain. I replaced the 5/16 with 3/8. it is a very different anchor.point being that judging an anchor by individual experience is difficult. I am actually stunned at the difference. The extra weight has made.mostly I notice notice the difference in technique anchoring. But bent shafts or failures to hold have so many variables. Were the anchors using a snubber? Unknown. Nit to rake away from the idea that I bought a spec chain and expect it is that spec. Just a comment,

[Overlord]

China is largest parts supplier for Boeing outsite US ...
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...pplier-boeing-... - Cached
20 posts - 7 authors - Last post: Sep 15, 2007
Will you ever fly in a boeing again..? Most of your car parts , brakes , clutches , cell phones , columbia shuttle parts , medical equipment and your food is made in CHINA.This thread is tired now and wants to be laid to rest.
Lets find something else to talk about

[s/v 'Faith']

Chris Smith, (any relation to Craig?)

Clearly you have not been paying attention. Boeing oversees their process... Rocna clearly does not. Rocna has marketed one thing and sold another.. and invented an amazing new system of quality control...

... when the quality slips, they just have the marketing guys change the specks....

Rocna is a tragedy, and the failure of their product is completely unpardonable.

[Overlord]

uuugh...i am yet to see this colossal failure your referring to..I am happy with my 40 kg chinese rocna.I could easily get a refund from WM and buy a Manson ..but that would be taking a step back.
The whole world is run on greed and misrepresentation..just look at the FDA or congress..At least the anchor is holding out to its reputation of being a solid , quick setting anchor..by God , its only an anchor were discussing, not heart transplant equipment.
By the way ,Craig is my first cousin

[GMac]

Originally Posted by chris smith

China is largest parts supplier for Boeing outsite US ...
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...pplier-boeing-... - Cached
20 posts - 7 authors - Last post: Sep 15, 2007
Will you ever fly in a boeing again..? Most of your car parts , brakes , clutches , cell phones , columbia shuttle parts , medical equipment and your food is made in CHINA.This thread is tired now and wants to be laid to rest.
Lets find something else to talk about

Just like the milk powered that killed many children, the brake components that the US is/was having run away cars issues with, the G40 chain that struggles to get to G20 loads, a multitude (but not all) of totally crap anchors and many more.

Like any country they can make very good but they can also make very scary. All depends on what you tell them to make.

The thread will come back shortly. There is a lot more that has yet to come out but I suspect we'll see some of that shortly. Same theme though, lies and deception.

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Finally, on the Rocna issue... I suspect that despite their malfeasance in manufacturing standards, the Rocna anchors will perform adequately well and not fall apart. However, their sleazy marketing methods mean that I will not buy their products.

Concur. There are a few more bent and twisted happening and will happen but total failure I doubt. More a arrogance inspired marketing failure really. The man behind it has a history locally so it hasn't been a total surprise to a few down this way. And No I do not mean Peter Smith, he's probably one of the ones losing the most out of all this and that is a shame.