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Old 30-06-2011, 08:11   #481
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Re: Rocna Size

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And based on the comments above, they will have customers, which is perhaps the most remarkable aspect of this drama after all, expecially given the availability of alternative products of equivalent or better performance made by honest people.
And don't forget less expensive! This brand loyalty thing has always seemed a bit strange to me, especially given the circumstances in this case. Rocna may be absolutely correct about the "functional" performance of their anchors, but why take a chance if there are proven (and less expensive) alternatives? Aren't there already enough systems to go wrong on our boats, more often than not from shoddy manufacturing and misleading marketing? We're just perpetuating these low standards it seems by supporting these types of manufacturers with our wallets.
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Old 30-06-2011, 08:42   #482
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Re: Rocna Size

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Originally Posted by impi View Post
What grade of steel are Rocna anchors made from?
[FONT=Arial]The exact materials used are part of the proprietary intellectual property involved in our production specifications....
Proprietary intellectual property? Funny. When I bought my Made-in-Canada Rocna, they advertised the exact grade of steel being used, claiming that this was why their anchors were so much more expensive than others.
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Old 30-06-2011, 08:58   #483
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Re: Rocna Size

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What grade of steel are Rocna anchors made from?
The exact materials used are part of the proprietary intellectual property involved in our production specifications, and grades of steel are carefully chosen to ensure they exceed the RINA Super High Holding Power (SHHP) requirements by a considerable margin, as mentioned above.

That's very funny. When they were using proper steel in their anchors, they had the steel specifications blazoned all over their web site as critical to functionality. When they changed the steel to below specification they did so without advising customers that the steel wasn't what they said it was. Now that they have been called out on the deception, they had two choices. Admit the mistake and start making anchors that are as strong as say, a Manson; or keep making them out of sub standard steel and figure out some way to make it fly.

They chose the latter and the solution is brilliant! Refuse to tell anyone what you're making the things out of on the basis that it is 'intellectual property'! Now, they can make them out of whatever rubbish they want to and it will all be just a closely guarded secret what they did.

So, new Rocna purchasers won't know what that hunk of steel on their bow is made of, nor whether it will bend in a side load, but they will have the assurance that the anchor has secrets. Now that will be worth the premium they will have to pay!

And based on the comments above, they will have customers, which is perhaps the most remarkable aspect of this drama after all, expecially given the availability of alternative products of equivalent or better performance made by honest people.
Delfin, the results are there mate. There are no other anchors outperforming the Rocna.... Rocna has admitted to the mistake.... They have given anyone that wanted it their money back and you can bet they have become a much stronger company out of this. It just seems strange you keep voicing such a negative perspective over something that happened a loooong time ago and has been dealt with. It's a done deal. I am yet to find a better anchor and I have NEVER found or seen one that does a better job of keeping me and my boat safe. Thats why they sell so many of them and they have such a great reputation. You didn't go buying shares in Manson did you? in 25 knots with a 7 to 1 scope flat water there is 0 load on my anchor. It sits on top of the sand. So i believe my calculations of anchor loading and required windspeed waaay back in this post are accurate.

File:SAIL-WM2006-chart.png (Rocna Knowledge Base)
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Old 30-06-2011, 09:12   #484
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Re: Rocna Size

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Originally Posted by sailingaway221 View Post
Delfin, the results are there mate. There are no other anchors outperforming the Rocna.... Rocna has admitted to the mistake.... They have given anyone that wanted it their money back and you can bet they have become a much stronger company out of this. It just seems strange you keep voicing such a negative perspective over something that happened a loooong time ago and has been dealt with. It's a done deal. I am yet to find a better anchor and I have NEVER found or seen one that does a better job of keeping me and my boat safe. Thats why they sell so many of them and they have such a great reputation. You didn't go buying shares in Manson did you? in 25 knots with a 7 to 1 scope flat water there is 0 load on my anchor. It sits on top of the sand. So i believe my calculations of anchor loading and required windspeed waaay back in this post are accurate.

File:SAIL-WM2006-chart.png (Rocna Knowledge Base)
So you have no problems with a company that for months avoided, denied and obfuscated about the metallurgical tests, and then finally when it has no choice but to address issues, it changes the story from how the 800MPA steel was critical to it's superiority.

Now the steel is "intellectual property".

The part of the world I come from would say their explanation is as useless as sucking farts out of a dead horse. And smells about the same.
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Old 30-06-2011, 09:29   #485
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Re: Rocna Size

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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
So you have no problems with a company that for months avoided, denied and obfuscated about the metallurgical tests, and then finally when it has no choice but to address issues, it changes the story from how the 800MPA steel was critical to it's superiority.

Now the steel is "intellectual property".

The part of the world I come from would say their explanation is as useless as sucking farts out of a dead horse. And smells about the same.
They admitted the mistake, refunded anyone that wanted it and continue to build and sell fantastic anchors. The test results were not negative for Rocna. The bad metal anchors were still 471 % stronger than they needed to be. The fact is that I have beaten on my anchor repeatedly... loaned it to guys to hang heavier boats than mine off during hurricanes and the thing has been 100% bulletproof. I believe very strongly in proven facts and my anchor has beyond any shadow of a doubt proven to be the most reliable thing on my boat. As long as their anchors get positive reviews form the people that use them they will continue to outsell all the others.
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Old 30-06-2011, 09:34   #486
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Re: Rocna Size

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Originally Posted by sailingaway221 View Post
They admitted the mistake, refunded anyone that wanted it and continue to build and sell fantastic anchors.
It was my understanding that it was WestMarine (and other sales outlets) that were doing the refunds free and clear. Could you ship it directly back to Rocna to get a refund?

Secondly... They "admitted" their mistake after getting caught. Its sort of like saying that an adulterer is forgiven because he fessed up after his wife caught him in bed with some skank.
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Old 30-06-2011, 09:41   #487
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Re: Rocna Size

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Originally Posted by sailingaway221 View Post
They admitted the mistake, refunded anyone that wanted it and continue to build and sell fantastic anchors. The test results were not negative for Rocna. The bad metal anchors were still 471 % stronger than they needed to be. The fact is that I have beaten on my anchor repeatedly... loaned it to guys to hang heavier boats than mine off during hurricanes and the thing has been 100% bulletproof. I believe very strongly in proven facts and my anchor has beyond any shadow of a doubt proven to be the most reliable thing on my boat. As long as their anchors get positive reviews form the people that use them they will continue to outsell all the others.
With respect, I think you are missing the point entirely. Any anchor made of any grade of steel is going to hold together on a straight pull. But the issue is not whether this anchor, or any other will survive straight line pulls, but whether the shank thickness that allows the correct weight distribution for the design is sufficient for the grade of steel used. Peter Smith said the shank has to be 800 mPA steel. Rocna now says it can be whatever they decide it should be since when they put one made out of mild steel in a bench apparatus and pull on it, it holds up well.

Regarding performing better than any other anchor, it has been clearly shown that in addition to lying about the steel they use, Rocna has lied about test results, pointing to a holding capacity in one test where the anchor was hung up on a rock as proof of superior holding power.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion about why your purchase of a Rocna was the smartest thing you could have done given the alternatives, but that doesn't change the facts on the ground. There are equivalent performing anchors made of better materials at less cost built by people who don't lie as a vocation, and that's a fact.
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Old 30-06-2011, 12:07   #488
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Re: Rocna Size

I climb mountains. I don't fall very often but when I do the climbing rope holds me off the ground. One end of the rope is on me (the boat if you will) and the other is connected one way or another to a climbing anchor.

You can see boat, rode, anchor parallel.

Like I said, I don't fall very often. When I do it is often a fairly light load. But every once in a while I might take a screamer. A worst case fall.

Each part of the anchor chain - harness, carabiners, rope, slings, belay device, climbing anchor has a failure mode or 2 and force limits. Let's just pick on caribiners (snap links) for the moment.

If a maker of carabiners produced some with inferior metal that were not up to design specs they would alert the climbing public as well as vendors and issue a recall. There would be no question of cover up or claiming that it was just a few and sweeping it under the rug.

By the same token, if someone died because of such a sub-spec device the company would be up for a lawsuit. If they had a coverup they might be up for criminal charges.

Just like I don't take a screamer very often, most sailors don't experience life and death anchorages very often.

---------

A simple press release would have been great.

We have discovered that some anchors were manufactured using sub standard steel. THis effects anchors made between xxx and yyy. Please bring your anchor in for exchange.

Or some such and then address the design review that allows for 6xx grade steel.

Regards, Ethan
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Old 30-06-2011, 12:26   #489
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Re: Rocna Size

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Originally Posted by evm1024 View Post
A simple press release would have been great.

We have discovered that some anchors were manufactured using sub standard steel. THis effects anchors made between xxx and yyy. Please bring your anchor in for exchange.

Or some such and then address the design review that allows for 6xx grade steel.

Regards, Ethan
Yeah, but then they wouldn't have been able to continue their streak as jackasses.
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Old 30-06-2011, 12:55   #490
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The Chinese factory

The class certificate issued by RINA to Rocna (http://www.rocna.com/assets/Uploads/Rocna-RINA-Cert.pdf) mentions the Chinese company that produces the anchors. Here is what they say of themselves:
About us-Shanghai Pangtong Business Enterprise Development Co., Ltd.
Shanghai Pangtong Business Enterprise Development Co., Ltd. is a modernized professional stainless steal [sic!] decoration product corporation. We are specialized in the design, manufacture and installation of metal decoration projects. We have some advanced and reliable devices, different punching machines, folding side machines, plate shearing machines, full sets of metal processing equipment and others. Besides the strong financial background, we also employ professional staffs who are skilled decoration designers, engineers and experienced technicians. And we have applied complete MIS for the production control. Our corporation considers trustworthiness and standard service as the core of the enterprise culture.
[...]
Our main operating scope is as follow: contract the producing and installing various types of top grade metal decoration products, such as revolving gates, auto gates, revolute stairs, railings, handrails, canopies, flagpoles, elevator wrapping plates, stainless steel cold paint-less big lamp-boxes, environment protection dustbins, and kitchen devices, and other large-scale metal decoration projects. What's more, we can manufacture products in accordance with the requirements and drawings of the clients. Our motto is to keep our promises and to regard customers' benefits as our own. Our tenet is to develop by management, to live on quality, and supply service normatively.
ISO 9001 certification and manufacturing carbon steel anchors don't appear in this text...

Alain
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Old 30-06-2011, 13:02   #491
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Re: Rocna Size

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Originally Posted by evm1024 View Post
I climb mountains. I don't fall very often but when I do the climbing rope holds me off the ground. One end of the rope is on me (the boat if you will) and the other is connected one way or another to a climbing anchor.

You can see boat, rode, anchor parallel.

Like I said, I don't fall very often. When I do it is often a fairly light load. But every once in a while I might take a screamer. A worst case fall.

Each part of the anchor chain - harness, carabiners, rope, slings, belay device, climbing anchor has a failure mode or 2 and force limits. Let's just pick on caribiners (snap links) for the moment.

If a maker of carabiners produced some with inferior metal that were not up to design specs they would alert the climbing public as well as vendors and issue a recall. There would be no question of cover up or claiming that it was just a few and sweeping it under the rug.

By the same token, if someone died because of such a sub-spec device the company would be up for a lawsuit. If they had a coverup they might be up for criminal charges.

Just like I don't take a screamer very often, most sailors don't experience life and death anchorages very often.

---------

A simple press release would have been great.

We have discovered that some anchors were manufactured using sub standard steel. THis effects anchors made between xxx and yyy. Please bring your anchor in for exchange.

Or some such and then address the design review that allows for 6xx grade steel.

Regards, Ethan
Only problem is that, as I read it, the company has no intention of bringing their anchors back up to the originally advertised spec. They're not really apologizing for the lower spec, but instead for not changing how that spec appears on their website. In other words, 'the carabiner is now being made with materials that are not as strong as the original design required, but they'll save you from a screaming fall anyway. We apologize for not telling you about this before you bought your carabiner but don't worry -- it should still work fine.' Did I miss something here?
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Old 30-06-2011, 13:08   #492
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Re: Rocna Size

I was going to buy rocna, but after reading how awesome their company is at keeping up with demand by shifting manufacturing to china, and how its now become a superior product because of it, I went with a manson supreme. ordered it 2 days ago
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Old 30-06-2011, 13:08   #493
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Re: The Chinese factory

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...ISO 9001 certification and manufacturing carbon steel anchors don't appear in this text...
I get it. Rocna anchors are suitable as decorations.
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Old 30-06-2011, 13:11   #494
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Re: The Chinese factory

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I get it. Rocna anchors are suitable as decorations.
Maybe they've decided to cater more to the superyacht crowd.
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Old 30-06-2011, 13:35   #495
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Re: Rocna Size

Devils advocate for a moment and ignoring the dodgy company dealings - if, as they say, only 8 have ever been returned with bent shanks then even with lower tensile steel maybe they aren't as deadly as some of the more senstionalist posters would have everyone believe.

Too little data the draw any meaningful conclusions. No one knows.
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