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Old 20-05-2011, 05:38   #316
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Re: Rocna Size

"fit for purpose"
"no evidence from real-life anchor use"
"meet requirements"

so begins the legalese, the wiggling and the weaseling. . . .
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Old 20-05-2011, 05:50   #317
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Re: Rocna Size

Anyone in the Chesapeake area wanting to offload their Rocna for cheaper than I can get a new Manson Supreme please shoot me an PM. I'd consider the 20 or 25 kg models. I'm in the Deale, MD area...

Thanks!

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Old 20-05-2011, 21:53   #318
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Re: Rocna Size

In a response to an email I sent Western Marine wondering if they were aware of the issues that surrounded the independent metallurgical tests and if they had any position with regards to that, I just got the followoing response:

We have forwarded this email to our Technical/Product Advice Operations Team for review and resolution. Someone will be contacting you very soon. Thank you again.


I suspect I will get an answer based on others who have had a positive experience, and I can understand that they need to get their ducks in a row.

However, I will be following up.
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Old 20-05-2011, 22:19   #319
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Re: Rocna Size

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Originally Posted by GeoPowers View Post
Anyone in the Chesapeake area wanting to offload their Rocna for cheaper than I can get a new Manson Supreme please shoot me an PM. ...
I can't see why anyone would want to do that.
If they have a faulty one then, under the terms of the Warranty, they can get a full refund through the retailer.
Nice try though.
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Old 20-05-2011, 23:03   #320
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Re: Rocna Size

Who ever can afford one of these super high tech ultra light wieght anchors can probably also afford a windlass, something all cruising sailors should have anyway. Light weight anchors are compared to "old school/proven" anchors in terms of holding power per pound of anchor that do not include the weight of chain or take into consideration the bottom conditions. I use a Bruce and CQR (both 22lbs) and a 45 lb Davis "Sea Hook" (looks like a Forjfort) as a storm anchor, with 300' of chain and/or 200' of rode w/ 25' of chain. If the the holding power of the Ponca is as good as it is said to be then you would need a windlass to break it free anyway. When you figure in holding power compared to size instead of weight then the Ronca takes up more deck space.
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Old 21-05-2011, 06:52   #321
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Re: Rocna Size

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Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
Evans,

Great post. As both a Rocna and Manson Supreme owner I can personally confirm that these anchors have performed identically for me and I have never found or said otherwise. These two anchors have been the best performing anchors I have ever used and I own MANY anchors including other "new gens" like the Spade.
Have you found the Rocna and Manson to be better than the Spade?

This has now become a highly relevant question, as after Rocna's self-destruct act, anchor choice now comes down to Manson vs. Spade rather than Manson vs. Rocna.

I had a Spade on my old boat and always felt it performed better than the Rocna on my present boat. It set much more sharply, while the Rocna requires more patient digging in, setting more like old gen anchors (albeit, setting very reliably and holding perfectly every time).

But I can't say for sure whether this means anything -- different boat, different chain, different place. I now have 100 meters of 12mm chain, and I think possibly the sheer weight of the chain dampens the sensation of the anchor biting in sharply.

What has your experience with the Spade been?
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Old 21-05-2011, 07:05   #322
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Re: Rocna Size

Or, more pertinent to this discussion, how does the strength of the Spade's shank compare to a Rocna? And, how do other anchors out there compare, particularly the Delta, which is also made in China and with a shank that has a very similar profile to the Rocna? Of course the ultimate question is whether or not these differences in shank strength really mean anything in real-world anchoring situations. As Evans has pointed out there appear to be a few bent Rocnas appearing, but there are lots of examples of other anchor brands bending too. I see them on boats and around boatyards all the time. Maybe a better solution is to use two anchors if you're expecting a dramatic wind shift.
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Old 21-05-2011, 07:24   #323
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Re: Rocna Size

Talked to both shops where i live yesterday... Rocna Anchors outselling the others by about 2 to 1 at the moment. I guess we have really hurt them with this thread ... at least where I live!
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Old 21-05-2011, 07:25   #324
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Re: Rocna Size

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Originally Posted by Kettlewell View Post
Or, more pertinent to this discussion, how does the strength of the Spade's shank compare to a Rocna? And, how do other anchors out there compare, particularly the Delta, which is also made in China and with a shank that has a very similar profile to the Rocna? Of course the ultimate question is whether or not these differences in shank strength really mean anything in real-world anchoring situations. As Evans has pointed out there appear to be a few bent Rocnas appearing, but there are lots of examples of other anchor brands bending too. I see them on boats and around boatyards all the time. Maybe a better solution is to use two anchors if you're expecting a dramatic wind shift.
The Spade is a more elaborately constructed and finished article than either Rocna or Manson, and is more expensive. I believe the shank is made of high tensile steel, and I have never heard of one bending (some flukes fell off, however, from fallen off bolts). Rocna says the shank is a common failure point, and that 800 mpa steel is crucial. I have no reason to doubt them, and for that reason I'm planning to return mine.
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Old 21-05-2011, 09:05   #325
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Re: Rocna Size

I expect one of the reasons for Rocna's relative silence is that they are sorta busy with more than a tornado. By now the distributors - including West Marine - would probably have put into action whatever procedure is specified in their distribution contracts for this kind of problem.

I have no idea what's in the agreement, but I would imagine it allows West to demand that funds be wired to them to cover the possible return of every Rocna anchor West has ever sold.

Just a guess

Carl
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Old 21-05-2011, 09:24   #326
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Re: Rocna Size

Well, I have a brand new 25kg Rocna sitting in my garage, awaiting fitting. I think I will keep it and see how this all plays out.
In reality, I will probably destroy something on the boat before the anchor would bend !
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Old 21-05-2011, 09:42   #327
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Re: Rocna Size

"In reality, I will probably destroy something on the boat before the anchor would bend !"

According to numbers Grant posted in another forum if the shank were to 450mpa it would take about 1000 pounds of sideways pull on the shank to bend it. If it were to 800mpa spec it is about 1650 pounds.

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Old 21-05-2011, 10:37   #328
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Re: Rocna Size

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Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
I still do not believe I have seen anyone address the issue of whether or not the difference in hardness would make a significant difference in the actual strength of the anchor in real world use.
Apparently hardness has a linear relationship to tensile strength and is therefore a good test of ultimate strength. I suspect that what you, and I as a Rocna owner, would like to know is, are the anchors suitable for use in the real world as opposed to the test bench. According to Rocna's literature they are not, but it looks like Rocna is now backing off of their previous position and switching to a "fit for purpose" standard and in the near future they will claim that they are suitable and they didnít really mean it when they said that shanks need to be high grade, high tensile steel. In the end they probably are "fit for purpose" and I still feel comfortable on my anchor, but I am feeling very uncomfortable about how much I paid for it and the disingenuous way that Rocna represents their anchors.

A comparison of different anchors under side load would be very interesting. I would like to see how the Rocna compares to the Manson, Spade and Buegel, as well as the Claw and Delta. Looking at the shaft on my old Danforth 3000 hi-tensile I canít imagine it would take much to bend it.


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Old 21-05-2011, 13:18   #329
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Re: Rocna Size

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I still do not believe I have seen anyone address the issue of whether or not the difference in hardness would make a significant difference in the actual strength of the anchor in real world use.
Good point, and one that initially caused me to hesitate swapping out my newly-purchased (made in China) Rocna 33 as well. With so much uncertainty, however, and in the absence of any credible or timely response from Rocna, it was a no-brainer to swap it out for a known-quantity that has great reports from the field, and apparently no controversy over its specs, namely a Manson. For all I know, my Rocna would have worked just fine, and I suppose it may still be possible this company is being unfairly maligned. When given an opportunity, however, I always try and follow the ethos of the prudent mariner. There are too many things that can and do go wrong with boat systems that we otherwise cannot control.
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Old 21-05-2011, 14:17   #330
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Re: Rocna Size

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Originally Posted by CarlF View Post
I expect one of the reasons for Rocna's relative silence is that they are sorta busy with more than a tornado. By now the distributors - including West Marine - would probably have put into action whatever procedure is specified in their distribution contracts for this kind of problem.

I have no idea what's in the agreement, but I would imagine it allows West to demand that funds be wired to them to cover the possible return of every Rocna anchor West has ever sold.

Just a guess

Carl
Actually the distributors don't care. They sell the anchor, make the profit ... after that point the warranty goes straight to Rocna ..... Also how many anchors do you think have been taken back? Like thousands? Hmmm maybe 3 in total... all of them the guy who did the test....Virtually no one else here with a Rocna seems to be running to take it back. I think this whole thread is blown out of proportion..... No one that walks into West marine to buy an anchor cares... If West marine or any other distributor did, they would have removed the anchors from sale... but no... still there and still selling...... Sooooo I imagine Rocna is quiet because this has not affected their sales in the slightest. Just my opinion but I think you think that this has had a massive effect on their sales... Like i said... last week the two shops in my area sold twice as any Rocna anchors as any other brand..... and 1 of the 2 had just placed a pretty large new order. The positive word of mouth about these anchors continues on through this thread and virtually every Rocna owner will let you know how good these anchors are...... I think that this type of review will far outweigh this discussion. I say it again... By FAR the best anchor I have... or have ever owned.... Love it! My anchor held through a hurricane.... 150 knots..... nope the shaft didn't bend...... and the boat was in the middle of it all....... BEST ANCHOR on the market!
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