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Old 27-06-2013, 18:53   #46
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Re: Rocna repositioned

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The Supreme is made by Lloyds approved welders. There is a paper trail in Manson's production meeting Lloyds requirments (if Lloyds want to know which materials and who were the welders last Friday - Manson has the documentation0. The Supreme's shank is defined and advertised.


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Jonathan--- Just a question regarding a so called paper trail. For would not such trail require serial numbers in order to relate back to a particular manufacturing event? I have a Manson Supreme 80#. I believe it is a great anchor although I have not seen any serialization. Maybe its there and I just overlooked it.

Foggy
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Old 27-06-2013, 19:29   #47
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Re: Rocna repositioned

Hi Foggy, yes and no. My understanding is that an approved factory, such as Manson's, allow themselves to be visited at random (for which the anchor makers pays) and the Classification Society organisation is able to demand paperwork for the materials on site etc. and who is producing what. The CS can also make an audit of paperwork over a period, how many anchors made - does it correlate with the amount of hi-tensile steel consumed etc. I do know that, for example, Fortress receive CS visits as some of their anchors are approved by CS.

But it is inordinately expensive to acquire CS approval and Manson have that approval for the factory and for all anchors excluding the Boss and Racer (and maybe the Boss has been included). If you have a foundry (and drop forging?) and cast products are used in the ground tackle these facilities need to be separately or individually approved. CS are very sensitive to use of cast items in ground tackle (which is where some have come unstuck in the past)

If you have gone to the expense of CS approval you are not going to risk losing that approval as a result of using unspecified materials or procedures that might be picked up in a random check or an audit.

There is a degree of reliance on the integrity of the anchor maker (and this reliance on integrity has come unstuck in the past). There is also a reliance on the CS, and their employees in countries not renowned for integrity. Its not perfect but its better than nothing.

The main flaw I see in the system is that it is not transparent, anything that happens is confidential to the anchor maker and CS and if there are any discrepancies they seldom come to the consumer's attention. But if a discrepancy is found by the public, quick and quiet contact with the International Association of Classification Societies, the CS concerned (and another CS, if aware, can bring pressure) or a furore on the internet has very swift repercussions. I know of one well aired and another, completely separate, not publicly aired discrepancy which when brought to the attention of IACS and CS resulted in swift actions (to the public's advantage). I might add, neither were Manson.

Jonathan
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Old 27-06-2013, 19:41   #48
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Re: Rocna repositioned

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Originally Posted by foggysail View Post
Jonathan--- Just a question regarding a so called paper trail. For would not such trail require serial numbers in order to relate back to a particular manufacturing event? I have a Manson Supreme 80#. I believe it is a great anchor although I have not seen any serialization. Maybe its there and I just overlooked it.

Foggy
There may be others but the only dude boat anchors that are stamped with a serial number is the Ultra.
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Old 28-06-2013, 04:13   #49
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Re: Rocna repositioned

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, Tern.
Tern Anchor ➥ Hold your life
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Old 28-06-2013, 18:12   #50
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Re: Rocna repositioned

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Originally Posted by JonJo View Post
Hi Foggy, yes and no. My understanding is that an approved factory, such as Manson's, allow themselves to be visited at random (for which the anchor makers pays) and the Classification Society organisation is able to demand paperwork for the materials on site etc. and who is producing what. The CS can also make an audit of paperwork over a period, how many anchors made - does it correlate with the amount of hi-tensile steel consumed etc. I do know that, for example, Fortress receive CS visits as some of their anchors are approved by CS.

But it is inordinately expensive to acquire CS approval and Manson have that approval for the factory and for all anchors excluding the Boss and Racer (and maybe the Boss has been included). If you have a foundry (and drop forging?) and cast products are used in the ground tackle these facilities need to be separately or individually approved. CS are very sensitive to use of cast items in ground tackle (which is where some have come unstuck in the past)

If you have gone to the expense of CS approval you are not going to risk losing that approval as a result of using unspecified materials or procedures that might be picked up in a random check or an audit.

There is a degree of reliance on the integrity of the anchor maker (and this reliance on integrity has come unstuck in the past). There is also a reliance on the CS, and their employees in countries not renowned for integrity. Its not perfect but its better than nothing.

The main flaw I see in the system is that it is not transparent, anything that happens is confidential to the anchor maker and CS and if there are any discrepancies they seldom come to the consumer's attention. But if a discrepancy is found by the public, quick and quiet contact with the International Association of Classification Societies, the CS concerned (and another CS, if aware, can bring pressure) or a furore on the internet has very swift repercussions. I know of one well aired and another, completely separate, not publicly aired discrepancy which when brought to the attention of IACS and CS resulted in swift actions (to the public's advantage). I might add, neither were Manson.

Jonathan

Thanks Jonathan for your excellent introductory explanation of CS as it relates to product quality control! I am pleased to have Mr. Manson Supreme, a functioning, reliable anchor at my boat's bow after my Delta frustration. Delta may get high ratings elsewhere but proved to be a complete failure on my boat, where I anchor.

Foggy
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Old 28-06-2013, 18:42   #51
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Re: Rocna repositioned

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Originally Posted by foggysail View Post
Thanks Jonathan for your excellent introductory explanation of CS as it relates to product quality control! I am pleased to have Mr. Manson Supreme, a functioning, reliable anchor at my boat's bow after my Delta frustration. Delta may get high ratings elsewhere but proved to be a complete failure on my boat, where I anchor.

Foggy
Foggy,
I think that says it all; "where I anchor".
I have had great success with a Delta.
But, I have a Boss on my list to buy and I'm betting it is better than the Delta.
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Old 28-06-2013, 18:46   #52
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Re: Rocna repositioned

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I have a manson supreme and it's never, ever, not set. It's popped loose a couple of times with 180 tide changes but always resets quickly enough and digs deep. Regardless of what manufacturers say, people with manson supremes are a pretty happy lot.
What size Supreme?
And, I didn't think a Supreme would work on your boats bowprit.
Do you keep it on deck? Any pictures?
They wont work on a Westsail therefore I am getting a Boss.
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Old 28-06-2013, 19:02   #53
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Re: Rocna repositioned

In defense of the Delta, when developed it was better or the equal of anything around at the time. But time has moved on and we now have anchors that are better still. Anchor design or technology does not, or did not, stand still. For some reason there seems to have been an expectation that a development in the 1980's would be a fair match for the first and second decade of this century.

Since the introduction of the Delta we have easy access to workable high tensile steel, as used on both the Supreme and Excel. The Knox anchor has gone to an even higher tensile steel. We saw something of a revolution (or eye opener) with the alloy Fortress and the steel Spade - both of which moved the benchmark up. We are now seeing use of high tensile alloys in lightweight anchors.

Some developments did not meet the test of time. But anchor 'design' continues to evolve.

Jonathan
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Old 28-06-2013, 23:26   #54
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Re: Rocna repositioned

We have a Rocna, which has been a fantastic sleeping pill for me since it was purchased. However, we always load-check our anchor when setting it, and we have had a lot of trouble getting the Rocna to hold properly in weed. Basically, we get the same result as the video that was posted earlier with the tractor, the weed builds up in front of the roll bar which prevents the anchor from digging in properly (Far enough), and she wonít hold under load. On the other hand, in sand and mud it just does not budge. We have been in situations where the wind has been going from 10 to 50 knots (Which created some serious jerking loads on the ground tackle), and the Rocna was just rock solid.
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Old 29-06-2013, 10:14   #55
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Re: Rocna repositioned

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We have a Rocna, which has been a fantastic sleeping pill for me since it was purchased. However, we always load-check our anchor when setting it, and we have had a lot of trouble getting the Rocna to hold properly in weed. Basically, we get the same result as the video that was posted earlier with the tractor, the weed builds up in front of the roll bar which prevents the anchor from digging in properly (Far enough), and she won’t hold under load. On the other hand, in sand and mud it just does not budge. We have been in situations where the wind has been going from 10 to 50 knots (Which created some serious jerking loads on the ground tackle), and the Rocna was just rock solid.

Now that is a surprise considering the similarities between the Rocna and the MS. Could it be related to the anchor size?? I use an 80# MS which has displayed zero problems with weeds. One of our anchoring spots, Cuttyhunk has ell grass almost 5' tall which our MS digs right though and stays set even when I pull a high strain to make sure it is set (to the point where I where I worried about cleats failing). It sets almost instantly after being lowered.... not free fall.
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Old 02-07-2013, 08:43   #56
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Re: Rocna repositioned

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Now that is a surprise considering the similarities between the Rocna and the MS. Could it be related to the anchor size?? I use an 80# MS which has displayed zero problems with weeds. One of our anchoring spots, Cuttyhunk has ell grass almost 5' tall which our MS digs right though and stays set even when I pull a high strain to make sure it is set (to the point where I where I worried about cleats failing). It sets almost instantly after being lowered.... not free fall.
Foggysail, we have a Rocna 25 (kilo), so it's a around 2/3 the size of yours MS 80 Lb. I guess the bigger the anchor the less the weed worries it proportionately? The problem could also very well be technique, so I'm open for tips. When we've had trouble getting a solid hook, we lay out the anchor (Not free fall) and have used up to 60+ meters of chain in normally around 3-8 Metres of water depth, trying to ensure a horizontal pull on the anchor, and make a very gradual pull to help the anchor bite, with no joy. Here's a picture of the anchor after one anchoring attempt we had a while back. I'd say there was little chance this anchor was going to bury deep enough into the mud to get a solid bite?

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Old 02-07-2013, 08:51   #57
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Re: Rocna repositioned

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Foggysail, we have a Rocna 25 (kilo), so it's a around 2/3 the size of yours MS 80 Lb. I guess the bigger the anchor the less the weed worries it proportionately? The problem could also very well be technique, so I'm open for tips. When we've had trouble getting a solid hook, we lay out the anchor (Not free fall) and have used up to 60+ meters of chain in normally around 3-8 Metres of water depth, trying to ensure a horizontal pull on the anchor, and make a very gradual pull to help the anchor bite, with no joy. Here's a picture of the anchor after one anchoring attempt we had a while back. I'd say there was little chance this anchor was going to bury deep enough into the mud to get a solid bite?

Burls
Eel grass would probably be the worst for anchoring with any hoop anchor. The root ball of each clump would pile up and load the hoop, as shown.
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Old 02-07-2013, 23:42   #58
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Re: Rocna repositioned

Foggysail2 Wrote:

We have a Rocna 25 (kilo), so it's a around 2/3 the size of yours MS 80 Lb. I guess the bigger the anchor the less the weed worries it proportionately? The problem could also very well be technique, so I'm open for tips. When we've had trouble getting a solid hook, we lay out the anchor (Not free fall) and have used up to 60+ meters of chain in normally around 3-8 Metres of water depth, trying to ensure a horizontal pull on the anchor, and make a very gradual pull to help the anchor bite, with no joy. Here's a picture of the anchor after one anchoring attempt we had a while back. I'd say there was little chance this anchor was going to bury deep enough into the mud to get a solid bite?

Burls.



Delfin stated all hoop style anchors suffer in this weed; this is a real unfortunate statement and creates an easy perception for the Super Sarca design to fall into the same category as Rocna and Manson supreme.

The roll bar on Sarca impedes the Sarcas performance little in weed, this is the thing, the fluke plate of both Manson Supreme and Rocna are of concave design, this wedge shape when in concave configuration simply shovels whatever it digs into and packs it against a thick roll bar as seen here.

When you go back to our original Sarca twenty years prior now to Super Sarca it was of concave design with a thick hoop, recognizing the problem and then researching we simply turned the fluke plate upside down to from a concave fluke to convex, we reduced the hoop thickness’ by going solid bar, this further aided deeper penetration, for further strenght we reinforced it at the top the shank, further we made the circumference larger to further reduce obstruction.

If you look at Mantus you will also see the larger hoop? When you look at either Manson Supreme or Rocna you will notice a striking resemblance to our original non full production Sarca anchor from twenty years back.

As most that use these concave design be either Manson Supreme or Rocna it is not hard to find wide spread evidence of this inherent concave weed problem, just go back to the well buried in the (Manson in weed) thread on this forum, even now after twenty years since the launch of the Sarca, not just trailer boats my friends but from tinnies to charter, yachts and commercial boats, you will be hard pressed to find the weed problem that is readily available in concave designs.

Don’t get me wrong as I will always encourage anchoring in sand firm mud every time if you are looking for security, Just thought I would try and clarify Defins take on roll bar designs, it would have been more appropriate to have said it is proven, roll bar concave combination struggle in weed.

Regards Rex.
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Old 02-07-2013, 23:52   #59
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Re: Rocna repositioned

I invite you all to watch this vid as it clearly explains the real difference and concept, further for those of you that dont get the Excels design and regulary relate it to delta, please take note of the following.



Regrds Rex.
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Old 03-07-2013, 00:51   #60
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Re: Rocna repositioned

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I invite you all to watch this vid as it clearly explains the real difference and concept, further for those of you that dont get the Excels design and regulary relate it to delta, please take note of the following.



Regrds Rex.
Excellent display of the difference in behaviour between convex and concave Rex.
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