Rocna Recall - China vs Canada Quality Comparison

[congo]

Go to google and type in bent rocna shanks, haven't gone through it but a lot of history appears.

I notice some of you were inquiring about tested anchor chain, you must have NATA testing outlets in your part of the world similar to Robertson in Australia.

These type of businesses test a lot of chain, some supply tested chain and will test your own if needed.

If your chain has just gone rusty and is not significantly worn having retested and galvanized is an option if one can be bothered.

Regards Rex.

[colemj]

Originally Posted by congo

Go to google and type in bent rocna shanks, haven't gone through it but a lot of history appears.

That is exactly what I did before writing my post. There is a lot of links - all showing that single bent anchor along with a couple of others that were bent on purpose.

Google "bent *insert any anchor*" and you will find examples (be forewarned that "bent manson" brings up some surprising adult stuff).

Mark

[congo]

Hi Colemi.

There were approx six photo's posted on a forum quite some time back,they should be tracable but I have better thing s to do with my time.

Bent shanks or no bent shanks I think customers are upset simply because they have been told the quality of the product is equal to if not the best, purchased on that asumption then only to find out they were duped.

Anyway I will leave your discussions up to you guys now just thought I could through some light on that no manufacturer was prpared to submit.

The manson adult stuff wont fix my bent shank it's past the use by date.



Regards Rex.

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by congo

The manson adult stuff wont fix my bent shank it's past the use by date.

Manadging director of Anchor Right Australia.

Regards Rex.

I apprecitate all the other stuff but you don't have to be that honest with us here.

[foggysail]

Originally Posted by ADMPRTR

I would like to challenge the assertion that Rocnas are prohibitively and unjustifiably more expensive than other anchors.

First off, we can't compare them to cheap knockoffs of Bruces, CQR and Delta style anchors. Therefore, the only fair comparsion is another brand name. As Manson Supreme are not available in Canada I have to compare to another brand.

I bought my Rocna 20 for $CND729. In the same store, a Lewmar Delta 44 was selling for $CDN399. The Rocna is a more complex and newer design and is still under copyright. Both anchors reportedly have hi-tensile steel.

The bottom line though is that the Rocna is claimed to have better setting and holding power than the Delta. For me, that justifies the 83% premium I paid and based on my limited experience, I am satisfied with the improvement over the CQR that I replaced.

Yes, Rocna should not make claims that are untrue, if that is what they are doing but to pay more for a better product is a reasonable position. How much is too much more to pay? Well that is what the market will bare. In my case, 83% was not too much more if it helps me sleep better at night.

Too expensive compared to what? We are sailors, everything is too expensive.

Too expensive??? Well yes, too expensive. You quoted $729 Canadian for a Rocna 20 which I presume to be 20 kilo therefore equal to 44 pounds. That price converted to US dollars is $732.47.

Two weeks ago I purchased an 80# Manson Supreme (36.28 kilo) for $688.36 US from West Marine who matched Defender's price. There is not much difference between a Rocna and a Manson Supreme. Defender currently sells the 80# Manson anchor for $750 US.

Now who is kidding whom??? You paid $732 US for a 44# Rocna and I paid $688 for an 80# Manson Supreme??? Heck even without a sale price, the 80# Manson can be had for $750 US.

OVERPRICED???YOU BETCHA!!!

Foggy

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by colemj

I keep hearing of all these bent Rocnas, but have only seen a single picture of one claimed to have bent while in use. That single picture keeps showing up everywhere, but no other examples. The other couple of pictures of bent rocnas were ones of someone intentionally bending the anchor. Have I missed the other examples?

Specifics on the famous one (as sent to me in a private email):

1- Customer had only owned anchor a short time and it was purchased in Italy.
2- Boat was a Bavaria 49 / 11 Ton Displacement
3- Anchor was Rocna 25kg manufactured in December 2008 (China)
4- Boat was anchored approx 2 miles from coast in 7.5m of water
5- Bottom was sandy seabed
6- 35 meters of 10mm chain
7- Winds were 17-20 knots
8- GPS Co-ordinates: 45° 23’ 800 N ; 12° 17’ 500 E
9- No underwater cables or coral were present
10- Windlass was Lofrans model Tigres 12V 1200W
11- No unusual resistance was noted by the owner when anchor was raised.

Are those good specifics?



Here's a few more:






Chinese Stainless..?




There was also a member here with a cat or tri who posted a picture if his bent Rocna..

[h20man]

Originally Posted by Vyndance II

In the detail pictures, the weld on the Canada anchor was done to cold to fast. There is a peak in the filler and voids on the shank. It is pretty but is not strong. It is basically glued together.

The one marked China was done a little hot and a little slow. There are no voids. There is absolute penetration from the looks of the puddle. Those two pieces are one.

I doubt they are machine welding a part like that. As far as quality control the one marked Canada should have gone back to the line.

Galvanizing is a hot dip process. If I see big blobs that just tells me the part is going to last longer. I would buy the one no one likes. (if there was not a problem with the shank bending, which is not being addressed in this thread)

BOTH ARE MADE IN CHINA......

[ADMPRTR]

Originally Posted by foggysail

Now who is kidding whom??? You paid $732 US for a 44# Rocna and I paid $688 for an 80# Manson Supreme??? Heck even without a sale price, the 80# Manson can be had for $750 US.

OVERPRICED???YOU BETCHA!!!

Foggy

You have to take in account the difference in Canadian and US prices. Even though our dollar is a par we are still paying more ("slightly higher in Canada" is the retail catchphrase ). Also, I made that purchase back in the spring when prices were higher.

The point that I was trying to make is that with the selection that was available to me in the store, the price of the Rocna over the Delta was not that significant IMO.

However, for you, with greater choice the Rocna does appear to be over priced. I see the following at the West Marine site:

88LB Rocna $1,159.00 ( which BTW is $1,199.99 in Canada)
80LB Manson Supreme $859.00 (not available in Canada)
88LB Lewmar Delta FastSet $681.00

I can see your point that there may not be a justification to pay an extra $300 for the Rocna over the Manson and even more so if you can buy it for as little as you stated. But again, for me, the Manson is not available domestically.

[ADMPRTR]

Originally Posted by Maine Sail

Specifics on the famous one (as sent to me in a private email):

1- Customer had only owned anchor a short time and it was purchased in Italy.
2- Boat was a Bavaria 49 / 11 Ton Displacement
3- Anchor was Rocna 25kg manufactured in December 2008 (China)
4- Boat was anchored approx 2 miles from coast in 7.5m of water
5- Bottom was sandy seabed
6- 35 meters of 10mm chain
7- Winds were 17-20 knots
8- GPS Co-ordinates: 45° 23’ 800 N ; 12° 17’ 500 E
9- No underwater cables or coral were present
10- Windlass was Lofrans model Tigres 12V 1200W
11- No unusual resistance was noted by the owner when anchor was raised.

Are those good specifics?

That is quite a selection. Were any boats lost or endangered as a result of anchor failure (with is a more important point, IMO)?

What examples are there for the Manson Supreme failing?

[foggysail]

Originally Posted by ADMPRTR

That is quite a selection. Were any boats lost or endangered as a result of anchor failure (with is a more important point, IMO)?

What examples are there for the Manson Supreme failing?

That I am really interested in!!! Anybody???

Foggy

[JonJo]

Is not part of the issue that Rocnas, Manson Supremes and Anchor Right Excels were designed with a shank using a steel of 800mpa. It has been found that simultaneous with advertising their shanks were made with 800mpa steel the Rocna anchor was actually being made with 620mpa steel and 420mpa steel. I expect to get what is advertised, or if you think this it is quite acceptable to say one thing and do another presumably you would be happy if the Rocna spec was dropped to 320mpa, or 250mpa? Based on the information from West Marine (and Grant King in Practical Sailor) there are thousands of anchors out there waiting to bend. All of these anchors were sold at 'full' cost. What happens to all the boat owners with, as Mr Francis calls them, 'rickety anchors' who do not read the Forum, Practical Sailor and the WM recall site. It is odd there is not a larger condemnation of the distributors who presumably thought they too could make a quick buck and are now quietly not accepting any responsibility. It is also odd that the WM notice is not a total recall as such - simply a warning, which is in stark contrast to the tone of the PS article.

It would also be interesting to hear from Anchor Right, Spade, Manson et al what their position is if a customer complains their fluke and/or shank is bent (and the focus should be on anchors). Fortress have a no-question replacement part policy (I think). It would useful to have the anchor manufacturers clarify - or in case they do not read this forum (there are so many Rocna threads) a 'knowing ' customer can advise.

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by JonJo

Is not part of the issue that Rocnas, Manson Supremes and Anchor Right Excels were designed with a shank using a steel of 800mpa. It has been found that simultaneous with advertising their shanks were made with 800mpa steel the Rocna anchor was actually being made with 620mpa steel and 420mpa steel. I expect to get what is advertised, or if you think this it is quite acceptable to say one thing and do another presumably you would be happy if the Rocna spec was dropped to 320mpa, or 250mpa? .

Exactly!! If I buy a porsche I expect a porsche, not a volkswagen, even if the volkswagen is fit for purpose!!!!

[congo]

Hi Jonjo.
Yes bent shanks, I think it is fair to say before rickety there were not too many comments from past history in anchors tests, reviews, and forum comments focus on bent shanks until the china rickety, we would simply replace an anchor if the customer was to send it to the dealer then on back to us, for Anchor Right Australia it is a none issue.

One must remember, the Rhina test was done on N.Z. made Rocnas, had they had Bis plate shanks, what do you think the result would be if they had of tested with the china steel.

When P Smith designed his anchor the thin shank was very much part of its performance, to obtain the strength needed in this design Bis plate was his choice, the only choice, high strength steel with great flexing properties, your answer with bent shanks lies between new anchor technology with thin shanks and a specific steel grade.

Some may think the rickety problem is not such an issue, when the Tsunami hit Phuket there were three yachts anchored in its path with Sarca anchors , none of them moved or bent shanks, we were showered with gratitude from those customers as many of their fellow boaters were washed onto rocks, this is when you want, what you pay for. Some of their stories are on our web site.

I purchased a brand new F250 FORD some time back, twelve months down the track I went to brake at a pedestrian crossing and low and behold the brake pedal at quite a rate continued to go to the floor, when it was inspected they found the front brake pipe was routed to close to the engine block and the rubbing vibration eventually wore it through, in other words an accident waiting to happen, that is how I see a rickety.

You know if you are worried with your purchase why not take it to a similar place like Robertson’s, have it proof tested to Rhina spec for Super High Holding Power, the method of this is in my earlier post, if it fails take it back, if no go with refund bin it and purchase something you can rely on.

Therapy, sorry about my tacky comment but I wasn’t being honest? When you are an inventor, manufacturer in this modern world of anchor tech you have to have sense of humor, mine sometimes gets the better of me.


Regards
Rex.

[Delfin]

Originally Posted by ADMPRTR

That is quite a selection. Were any boats lost or endangered as a result of anchor failure (with is a more important point, IMO)?

What examples are there for the Manson Supreme failing?

I asked that very question of Ned Wood, the sales manager for Manson in NZ and his categorical statement was that they had never seen a bent shank on a Manson Supreme. Since the statement was categorical and since he knew that I was testing a Rocna to see if I could replicate the results they found in their test and was posting the results, as well as his comments, on sites like this, I make the assumption that it is a fact as far as he knows, and he should know.

The difference between 800 MPa steel coupled with the slightly greater cross section of the Supreme compared to the Rocna's steel and smaller cross section makes a world of difference bending-wise, or so it seems.

Bottom line, in North America you can buy a Rocna for more money from a company that is proven to misrepresent facts about their product and get less strength compared to the competition that costs less. Frankly, the only party that would defend such a choice would be someone who has already made the wrong one, and wants to defend it against all facts.

[ADMPRTR]

Originally Posted by Delfin

Frankly, the only party that would defend such a choice would be someone who has already made the wrong one, and wants to defend it against all facts.

Based on this news I have to admit I am experiencing a certain amount of second guessing, FUD and making sour grapes. As I didn't buy it from West Marine I can not return it but even if I could I am not certain I would.

Although I would have preferred that it was matching the advertised specs, I did not buy a Rocna because it had 800mpa but because I believed that it would satisfy my needs. I still feel that it will do the job for which it was bought. My hope is that when the time comes that I need it it will not fail. That is a leap of faith but frankly I believe every time we cast off from the dock we are taking that leap. I can only trust that this faith has not been misplaced.