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Old 02-09-2011, 01:46   #16
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Re: Rocna Recall - China vs Canada Quality Comparison

To all those people complaining about their Rocna's being made in China I would ask; where do you think your chain is made?
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Old 02-09-2011, 05:48   #17
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Re: Rocna Recall - China vs Canada Quality Comparison

I am more concerned about the quality strength hardness of the steel itself than about some uglier welding which on the china anchor looks coarser and larger. Maybe thicker than it needs to be but that might not crack as easily. I dont know, a lot of unknowns going on with those anchors. If that weld were to fail your floating free. Reputations that go sour are hard to win back. If your anchor is bending back and forth and back and forth, the steel is going to fatigue crack. I could see that happening if the boat is swinging back and forth and back and forth in heavy winds and waves lifting and pulling on the shank.
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Old 02-09-2011, 05:50   #18
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Re: Rocna Recall - China vs Canada Quality Comparison

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Originally Posted by alan_za View Post
To all those people complaining about their Rocna's being made in China I would ask; where do you think your chain is made?
Similar idea yes, but anchor chain each link is free to move where as the rocna complaint is the steel bends cause its weak plain old steel not strength hardened, bends with leverage when its stuck in the sand.
Just take a steel rod and bend it back and forth again and again and it will simply crack off. If long it can take a while as the entire steel is being stressed over a long distance, but it will eventually snap. A boat can do this over a long time, but most people I think wont have a problem. It is just a matter of the odds of this or that contributing to an eventual failure.

Welds are supposed to be stronger than the base steel, but if the weld is poorly done with granular inclusions you wont know till it does break.
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Old 02-09-2011, 06:55   #19
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Re: Rocna Recall - China vs Canda Quality Comparison

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Do you have any idea were the Canadian one came from...they haven't been produce there since 2008 I believe?
Hmmmm, I'm with you AVB. There is nothing I have learned about this subject that indicates that there has been a Rocna made outside of China for a few years. In fact, I attempted to communicate with Suncoast, Rocna's Canadian distributor after I got my test results and was ignored. Seemed like that would have been a good opportunity to say they were back in the business of building Rocna's to spec if it were the case, and it is also seems that with the flood of bad publicity associated with Rocna's trade practices, Suncoast whould put on their web site that they were making them again, but they haven't.

Hogan, if you were hopping mad with Rocna cheapening their steel, not telling anyone, and then pretending it's none of your business what steel they use, you are really going to be pissed if you find out that someone is slapping a Made in Canada sticker on a Chinese anchor as a response to the problem.

Rocna has also moved their production from one Chinese plant to another and that may account for the visual differences you have noted. But as others have said, the issue is the quality of the steel used. Ugly welds can still be good welds, but bad steel is bad to the bone.

The plot continues to thicken on this sad story of a formerly good product made by dishonest people.

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Old 02-09-2011, 07:23   #20
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Re: Rocna Recall - China vs Canada Quality Comparison

While I don't disagree with your decision, I don't think you understand the differences between the two anchors and are confusing their physical differences with quality differences.

The Chinese anchor is made from cast steel, while the CD one is made from plate steel. A cast anchor will always look different from a plate steel anchor, and that does not say anything about the quality. Welding cast steel is also different and the welds will look less "clean" than plate steel welds.

You can't be serious about holding Rocna criminally negligent for someone having and accident while using their anchor? There would be a high burden of proof on the user to prove that case, and then where would it end? The maker of your fillet knife being sued because you cut yourself? Jabsco being sued because you slipped off your toilet?

I'm not defending Rocna, and would not buy their Chinese made anchors (I have a CD one). And I think they have been sleazy with their handling of this problem. However, I think you are going overboard and overdramatic with your rant. Particularly since it is mostly based on physical parameters that you are confused on.

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Old 02-09-2011, 07:25   #21
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Re: Rocna Recall - China vs Canada Quality Comparison

BTW, I don't think it is unusual for West Marine to find old stock laying around. I was just in the Annapolis WM and they have a few Spade anchors (fantastic price). WM hasn't sold Spade anchors in many years. This might account for a CD Rocna showing up now and then.

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Old 02-09-2011, 07:40   #22
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Re: Rocna Recall - China vs Canada Quality Comparison

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While I don't disagree with your decision, I don't think you understand the differences between the two anchors and are confusing their physical differences with quality differences.

The Chinese anchor is made from cast steel, while the CD one is made from plate steel. A cast anchor will always look different from a plate steel anchor, and that does not say anything about the quality. Welding cast steel is also different and the welds will look less "clean" than plate steel welds.

You can't be serious about holding Rocna criminally negligent for someone having and accident while using their anchor? There would be a high burden of proof on the user to prove that case, and then where would it end? The maker of your fillet knife being sued because you cut yourself? Jabsco being sued because you slipped off your toilet?

I'm not defending Rocna, and would not buy their Chinese made anchors (I have a CD one). And I think they have been sleazy with their handling of this problem. However, I think you are going overboard and overdramatic with your rant. Particularly since it is mostly based on physical parameters that you are confused on.

Mark
Mark, I agree with some of your comments, but I think you are incorrect in your comparisons to other products. Rocna intentionally cheapened the materials used in a design that require higher quality materials, then lied about it. A very different scenario from slipping off the John. In the event that someone is harmed who purchased a product they were told was of one strength but turned out to be of another strength through deceptive trade practices, then yes, it is possible that criminal liability could be charged. Some states have already passed laws to this effect.

I was able to find this film clip of the current owner of Rocna being interviewed by the police for similar deceptive trade practices while running his former company - a candy manufacturer, and he got arrested then!

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Old 02-09-2011, 08:02   #23
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Re: Rocna Recall - China vs Canada Quality Comparison

I'm pretty sure "Made in CN" means made in China, doesn't it? The canadian website is probably just for the distributor.....

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Old 02-09-2011, 08:15   #24
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Re: Rocna Recall - China vs Canada Quality Comparison

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Mark, I agree with some of your comments, but I think you are incorrect in your comparisons to other products. Rocna intentionally cheapened the materials used in a design that require higher quality materials, then lied about it. A very different scenario from slipping off the John. In the event that someone is harmed who purchased a product they were told was of one strength but turned out to be of another strength through deceptive trade practices, then yes, it is possible that criminal liability could be charged. Some states have already passed laws to this effect.
Yes, I agree with you. That is why I stated that the burden of proof would be very high on the person making such a claim. One would need to prove that the harm came from exceeding the unstated strength of the anchor and not from a myriad of other possibilities that would be encountered in the type of situation that would cause such a problem.

For example, your anchor shank bends while anchored during a hurricane and the anchor lets go and you lose your boat. Did you exceed the design limit of the "unstated" lower quality? Probably. Did you also exceed the "stated" design limit that should have been? Not possible to prove you didn't.

Or maybe another boat dragged into you and both of you went on the rocks. Is that due to the lower anchor specs? You would probably have a difficult time making that case.

Again, I find Rocna's position and response to this despicable and they deserve all they might receive from their customers. But calling them criminally negligent is a bit over the top.

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Old 02-09-2011, 08:33   #25
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Re: Rocna Recall - China vs Canada Quality Comparison

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I'm pretty sure "Made in CN" means made in China, doesn't it? The canadian website is probably just for the distributor.....

Frank
Yes, yes it does. But let's not let that stop us from being racist and xenophobic, OK? I was just starting to have fun....

I do wonder where the "China" anchor was made - also in China, or in Canada????
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Old 02-09-2011, 08:35   #26
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Re: Rocna Recall - China vs Canada Quality Comparison

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Rocna intentionally cheapened the materials used in a design that require higher quality materials, then lied about it.
This is the part of this whole thing that bothers me the most. I don't think that is true. Rocna claims today that while they have changed the materials that the anchors currently exceed RINA's SHHP standard and have been independently tested to do so.

I can see people getting upset by Rocna not living up to what it claimed on it's website but to say the "design requires higher quality materials" when the current anchors are meeting the specs and certifications that the company and the certifying agencies currently require seems to me to be misleading.

The only thing I think we really know is that when they first started making the anchors out of a lower quality steel they probably went too far and got caught in it. For that they deserve whatever you want to give them but to say that the currently produced anchor is somehow deficient when it meets the same standards we would expect other RINA certified anchors to meet seems to be a stretch.

Jim
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Old 02-09-2011, 08:38   #27
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Re: Rocna Recall - China vs Canada Quality Comparison

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Yes, yes it does. But let's not let that stop us from being racist and xenophobic, OK? I was just starting to have fun....

I do wonder where the "China" anchor was made - also in China, or in Canada????
That would be a hoot wouldn't it.

Jim
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Old 02-09-2011, 08:55   #28
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Re: Rocna Recall - China vs Canda Quality Comparison

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Originally Posted by Hogan View Post
Made in Canada UPC:



My replacement (of Canadian providence) anchor at rest on Nomad's bowsprit after a no hassle exchange at West Marine:
Actually, on second thought, both of those anchors are make in China. The international two letter contraction for Canada is "CA" and China is "CN".

The UPC correctly identifies the country of origin as "CN" or China.

Suncoastmarine.ca is the URL of the Rocna distributer, located in Canada. They USED to be the Canadian manufacturers, but for an unknown reason to me discontinued that when the H.O. made the manufacturing switch to China.

So, there is no deception on this one, only a bit of confusion.

I AM surprised at the two different examples of quality... the mystery deepens.

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Regarding West Marine:


Yet the Marina Del Rey West Marine has NEVER given me ANY hassle when I've returned something.

It's rare to have to bring something back, though inevitable over the two years I've been preparing my ship for cruising.

They accepted a 12 month old battery I killed, no questions asked, giving me store credit.
West Marine has handled themselves quiet well on this whole episode. The only question I would have, "Are they ordering NEW inventory of Rocna anchors?". If so, why?
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Old 02-09-2011, 09:16   #29
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Re: Rocna Recall - China vs Canada Quality Comparison

I once bought an anchor swivel on ebay that was made in China. I have never seen such disgusting workmanship. I would not use it to tie up my dog let alone sleep through a blow. That scared me off China made junk forever.

Quality is remembered long after price is forgotten.
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Old 02-09-2011, 09:22   #30
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Re: Rocna Recall - China vs Canada Quality Comparison

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This is the part of this whole thing that bothers me the most. I don't think that is true. Rocna claims today that while they have changed the materials that the anchors currently exceed RINA's SHHP standard and have been independently tested to do so.
If you look at the testing done and currently touted on the Rocna website, the strength noted as exceeding SHHP standards is in a straight pull on a bench where the flukes have been immobilized. On this basis a 2" rod of mild steel 4" long would also exceed SHHP strengths, but would you want to anchor your boat with it? The question has never been the strength of mild steel in a straight pull, but the proven tendency of the Rocna shank to bend once the steel was cheapened. You seem to have completely missed the point, which of course was Rocna's purpose in publishing this latest bit of squid ink.

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I can see people getting upset by Rocna not living up to what it claimed on it's website but to say the "design requires higher quality materials" when the current anchors are meeting the specs and certifications that the company and the certifying agencies currently require seems to me to be misleading.
It was Peter Smith, the designer, who stated that 800 mPA steel was needed to give the correct strength given the thickness of the shank that was required for the right balance between shank and flukes. While I have not heard Peter Smith disavow his prior assertions of the need for higher quality, I have heard Rocna make different claims, which they support with their misleading bench pull test.

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The only thing I think we really know is that when they first started making the anchors out of a lower quality steel they probably went too far and got caught in it. For that they deserve whatever you want to give them but to say that the currently produced anchor is somehow deficient when it meets the same standards we would expect other RINA certified anchors to meet seems to be a stretch.

Jim
Again, I will rely on Peter Smith. He stated that anchors made out of the steel the Rocna is currently made out of were deficient. We have a meaningless straight pull bench test offered by Rocna to prove that their anchors are "fit for purpose". Perhaps you should suggest that Rocna have an independent agency test side loading strength of their product vs. competitors? That would settle it, and actually provide meaningful information for boaters, since few of us first affix our anchors to a 12 ton bench apparatus and then lower it over the side.
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