Rocna Doesn't Fit . . . Do I Go with Ultra or Delta ?

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

Delta.... It sets and digs in easily but does not offer the high resistance of the new generation anchors when set.

I have no doubt in my mind that the 'new generation' anchors are better. I love my delta but if one of you scum suckin' rich buggers would give me $1,000 I would have a new fat Manson Suprime


Mark

[RaySea Lady]

Thanks a bunch for your posts and opinions, Right now I am leaning towards the 40KG Ultra. I will be going to the boat show in Miami this year and will meet Randy there to finalize it.

My boat is in storage for the winter so I don't need it till the spring.

thanks again.

[Pa La O La]

Originally Posted by Hiracer

I couldn't get the roll bar anchors to fit on my boat either. I bought a Delta.

Then I sold the Delta and bought a Spade. Been happy ever since.

So happy that I bought a back up Spade. Got two now.

NavStore - Your Pro Marine Source - Product Catalog

Don't get the aluminum version. Get mild steel or SS.

77#: SPADE Anchor Model S160 - Gal. Steel 77# - S160 - Anchoring - NavStore - Your Pro Marine Source - Detail

I work at W/M and we clearance out those spade anchors a year or so back at the St. Pete area stores. It was a steal of a deal for the guy who bought our two remaining anchors. He raved about them but I must say I saw two returned with bent shafts. I can’t tell you how they got that way, I don’t know the story. I have seen several traditional danforth styles over the years with bent shanks but never a delta. Now that could be because they let go before they bent or more likely not hard enough bottom around where I have been. Has anyone seen a bent shank on a Delta?

[Cheechako]

I dont remember seeing a bent shank on a Delta, I have seen a couple of bent shanks on a CQR! Hard to believe with that I beam shank....probably a rock situation....Hard for me to believe anything but jammed in a rock would bend a shank on most anchors other than a Danforth, (which once dug in has a lot more holding power in a straight line than any of them and a thin shank....)
For the same price one of the New gen anchors would be a no brainer to try, for 3 x as much I dont know. Wanna make a bunch of money? reverse engineer them and have them made in Mexico.... when you think about it, they are charging Aircraft parts prices for those anchors....

[Hiracer]

Originally Posted by Pa La O La

I work at W/M and we clearance out those spade anchors a year or so back at the St. Pete area stores. It was a steal of a deal for the guy who bought our two remaining anchors. He raved about them but I must say I saw two returned with bent shafts. I can’t tell you how they got that way, I don’t know the story. I have seen several traditional danforth styles over the years with bent shanks but never a delta. Now that could be because they let go before they bent or more likely not hard enough bottom around where I have been. Has anyone seen a bent shank on a Delta?

In keeping with that train of thought, on the net I've seen pictures of the Claw with shafts that completely snapped in two. Not bent; snapped. I guess that's what cast steel does. Talk about catastrophic failure!

I don't think it's possible to make a shaft that will not bend or snap. It's just a matter of how much force is necessary. Hey, if a CQR shaft can bend, they all can.

To me, the real linchpin issue is how well does it set and reset. An anchor that doesn't set AND reset ain't much of an anchor. That is the main reason why the new generation anchors have become popular. The older styles can be set and will reset too, but not as dependably as the new generation anchors.

Additional holding power is a plus too, but that is secondary IMO to setting and resetting. Especially setting and resetting in difficult bottoms. That's where the good is separated from the not-so-good.

[Cheechako]

I agree, resetting is the issue to be solved. Although having a little less holding power, I bet a Delta with a hoop welded on would rest... what do you think?

[Hiracer]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

I have no doubt in my mind that the 'new generation' anchors are better. I love my delta but if one of you scum suckin' rich buggers would give me $1,000 I would have a new fat Manson Suprime

This scum suckin' rich bugger got up at 5:00 in the morning to trip out to a boating swap meet to score his 66# Spade for $200.

Took about three nanoseconds to decide to purchase it. Came looking for a spinnaker pole but left with an anchor. First mate still doesn't get it, especially since the anchor lives in the lazarette.

BTY, scored a spinnaker pole FOURTEEN MONTHS later at a used boat parts store.

And they say men hate shopping . . . .

[Hiracer]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

I agree, resetting is the issue to be solved. Although having a little less holding power, I bet a Delta with a hoop welded on would rest... what do you think?

The purpose of the hoop is to ensure than the anchor roles off its back and presents the tip to the bottom. Other anchors use weight and/or shape to perform the same function.

I don't think the hoop would help the Delta unless tip weight was increased, but then any increase in tip weight would likely only be incremental.

Further, one of the things I think is frequently missed is that surface area of the anchor blades is not the only way an anchor resists movement.

The friction coefficident of the bottom is very important. I once did an emergency anchorage on a lee shore where local knowlege claimed the bottom was too soupy to hold anything. We had 25 - 30 knot winds but held, despite all protestations.

The anchor was the Super Max which is well known to be a good burrower. It went pretty deep, over fifteen feet where it hit bottom material that had a much higher friction coefficient than the surface material.

Meaning, digging or burrowing is important, IMO, for high holding power because sometimes good bottoms are hidden under lousy top material. I suspect that the use of the hoop, while aiding setting and resetting, may actually hinder digging thus preventing the anchor from getting to bottom material that provides much better friction coefficient.

For that reason, I would not recomend putting a hoop on an anchor that is not designed for it.

[GMac]

We have just finished a small test programme on some newer anchors. We use a CQR and a Delta as the datum anchors.

The Ultra cleaned up the Delta and just horribly embarrassed the CQR.

About the only thing that let the Ultra down is the price but then it is hand made in SS in Europe not mass produced in china. SS Supremes are a bit cheaper, the Rocna SS's are just silly in price. Last I looked you could get 2 SS Supremes or Ultras for less than one Rocna. They need to work big time on the SS Rocna pricing I think.

The roll bars are there as Mr Spade was very clever in how he wrote his patents.

Someone wanted a dodgy Delta photo? Oversized to the boat and when they pulled it up the 2nd time it was used they found out why they were drifting. But it is the only one this trashed like this we have seen. Looks like the welding wasn't carried right the way around the shank. We had a couple of others at the time that had pin holes in the welds at the back of the shank. Lewmar replaced them without hesitation, well done Lewmar or at least their local agents who I hope sorted it with Lewmar.

Given 10min I could post bent and broken shafts of just about any anchor you mention. They all will fail somehow if not used right.

[Ancora Latina]

Originally Posted by Pa La O La

Has anyone seen a bent shank on a Delta?

[Pa La O La]

Well that does look bent. I had little doubt that the shank would bend but didn’t expect a depiction so quickly. Was this your delta? I’ll also say this about my “Mason Supreme” I get to see what the bottom looks like even if I don’t dive on the anchor. It brings a bit of it up every time. I too must say the fact that an anchors ability to set and reset was at the top of my list of considerations. Thanks for the photo proof.
GMac this test you were doing, will it show up in print anywhere? Good ground tackle is better than any paper insurance you can buy at any price.

Gary

[RaySea Lady]

Originally Posted by GMac

We have just finished a small test programme on some newer anchors. We use a CQR and a Delta as the datum anchors.

The Ultra cleaned up the Delta and just horribly embarrassed the CQR.

About the only thing that let the Ultra down is the price but then it is hand made in SS in Europe not mass produced in china.

Thanks, this is the type of feedback I was hoping for. Actual experience with the ultra.

Can you be more specific as to why the ultra cleaned up the delta? Embarassing the CQR should have been very easy, I have one, remember...

[Cheechako]

Going back and reviewing the West Marine testing a few years ago, some things are evident. The Fortress, Spade, Delta, Manson and Rocna all tested about the same for max pull. ... in the 5000/5500 range. (surprising they didnt test a Steel Danforth and I remember it testing closer to 10K in past tests) ( a 40 ft boat in 60 knots of wind is considered to pull 4800 lbs on the anchor: ref ABYC) However, the Rocna tests far above the others as far as not moving or "plowing". A little plowing may not be an issue, they dont really say how much they moved.... but evidently not too much or there wouldnt be such a wide difference between Max pull and movement. The Spade and the Delta were about the same regarding peak strain before movement. (roughly 65% of max pull) Basically they look a lot alike, heavily ballasted toward the tip... except the spade is concave. This would indicate that concavity is not a feature that improves holding.
Another interesting thing is that other than the Spade and Delta 3:1 vs 5:1 scope made little difference!! Wow... that's surprising... However, The Spade and Delta performed much worse with 3:1 scope. (similar results again for those two) it appears to me the only anchor (negating wind reversal!!) that is a clear leader is the Rocna.
The spokeman for Rocna however seems to think we are all dumb:
"Since the Rocna has a fluke folded from flat plate, I needed to make sure the tip is very strong. We do this by brake-pressing the blade, which is a more expensive process than rolling." (Huh? I've been in the metal trades for 35 years and can tell you that brake forming that piece takes about 30 seconds)
"We don't laminate steel. Metal gains no strength from lamination; it's often just edge- comparison. welded so the space between the sheets is effectively hollow. This process also has other implications - for example the weld is usually ground off to make it look nice. The result is little weld holding the fluke together." Hmmm... has anyone ever seen an anchor made from laminated steel? (multiple sheets together) Maybe I'm missing something but I've not aware of one....?

Of course West Marine missed the whole point by not doing 180 degreee reversal testing....

[James S]

The Rocna is thickened on the end.

[Hiracer]

Gmac,

In terms of setting dependability, would you estimate that the Ultra is in the same league as the Rocna, Supreme and Spade, or slightly better or worse? TIA.





BTY, if it's money you want to spend, there's always the SS Spade. Bling, bling.

RaySeaLady would have to choose between $3,700 USD for a 67# or $5,900 USD for a 120#. Imagine fouling one of those puppies and having to leave it behind!