Replace Quick with another Quick or other brand??

[solecollector]

I have a Quick windlass with 1/2" chain (it is metric so I'll have to confirm - but I know this limits my options). The Quick is OG equipment and 11 years old. I have to re-fiberglass a part of the boat so I thought this might be the time to replace the windlass as it is getting weaker and weaker - even after cleaning the solenoid.

Thanks for any advice._steve

[CarinaPDX]

The two general reasons for slowing down are friction and electrical resistance.

Have you rebuilt the windlass? Taking it apart, cleaning, replacing bearings and seals, and using fresh lube can make a large difference. Sometimes a seal will wear and the resulting salt water intrusion can corrode the bearing, in turn damaging the shaft (which doesn't turn very well at that point). I had to take my main shaft to a machinist to weld and turn down - works great now. Parts costs are very low, although rebuilders can be costly.

Considering the high currents involved I too would be suspicious of the solenoid (if the mechanical inspection showed nothing). Beyond cleaning, the contacts would have to be brightly polished - usually not done, just replaced. As part of the mechanical teardown I would look closely at the motor for any corrosion, and for any play in its bearings. Also, it is time to check the brushes as they wear down and affect the power output, assuming not a brushless motor.

I certainly wouldn't replace the windlass unless there was damage that couldn't be economically repaired. Rebuilding isn't that hard or expensive.

Greg

[solecollector]

Here is a video of what it is doing.... besides the lower power. I know it shouldn't move at all so I assume the bolts tore through the mount.

https://youtu.be/xSfMTA6bKjs

[CarinaPDX]

At first blush that looks like an electrical problem. I would be checking the motor's brushes if it has any. Also check the resistance of the solenoid contacts (internal) by disconnecting the battery then power the solenoid while measuring the resistance between the battery input and output to the motor (for both solenoids on a bi-directional system). Trace the power all the way back to the battery (both + and -) for sources of resistance just to be sure.

The obvious salt deposits (& corrosion?) that have reached the motor are not a good thing - let's hope no water got inside. Also, the movement when activated seems odd to me - if there is no shock mounting (hard rubber) then you have a loose mount that needs tightening, but probably not related to the problem at hand.

Greg

[CarinaPDX]

I assume that the surging was the problem, and not that you turned it on/off to show the movement. Is that correct?

Greg

[LongRange]

By way of trying to localize the problem, I would bypass the solenoid altogether and connect the (short and clean) leads of a known-good battery directly across the windlass. The outcome of that experiment would determine which area needs closer scrutiny.

[solecollector]

Originally Posted by CarinaPDX

I assume that the surging was the problem, and not that you turned it on/off to show the movement. Is that correct?

Greg

That was on and off... that is how much it moves. I just found this out today and am worried about the corrosion / movement / loss of power over the past month. All together it spells - a rebuild or a new one. I don't know any good rebuild people here in South FL - although I'm sure there are some.

[CarinaPDX]

If the loose mount is caused by loose nuts then it may be just a little tightening needed. Otherwise some fiberglass repair and reinforcement may be needed. It does suggest that the windlass may have been overloaded at some point.

Please don't be offended, but I think it is important to at least give note to two mistakes commonly made by cruisers (whether or not this applies to you): 1) using the windlass to pull the boat forward while the anchor is being recovered, and 2) using the windlass to hold the chain against the pull of the anchor. Windlasses are simply not designed for either use. In the first case, motor up to the anchor while recovering the chain, and in the second use a snubber to take the load to a stout cleat or similar. I have known more than one boat to have the windlass pulled out of the deck in a blow.

What symptoms do you have of a weaker pull? When on it looked about right although it was too short to see much.

Greg

[CarinaPDX]

I have been looking again at the video, and one thing is not clear: is the outside (chromed) part of the windlass moving also? If not then the movement below may be the result of a rubber shock absorbing element in the drive, which may need replacing (or not - it is doing its job by allowing movement). If the outside is moving then you can check the tension of the mounting nuts, but just tightening them may not help if the holes are enlarged.

If the windlass has been overloaded enough to damage the mounting then it also may have bent the main shaft, which would result in friction and a loss of power. There are many possibilities, and it will be necessary to eliminate them systematically. Bypassing the solenoid is a good start, as recommended by @LongRange. This may be a simple problem with an inexpensive solution, or not. Too early to tell.

Greg

[Jim Cate]

1) using the windlass to pull the boat forward while the anchor is being recovered, and 2) using the windlass to hold the chain against the pull of the anchor. Windlasses are simply not designed for either use.

This dogma is oft quoted, and is present in most windlass instruction manuals.

I keep asking this question: If the windlass is rated at 1200/1500 lbs pull, and if I can pull the boat up to the anchor by hand, implying that the load presented by pulling the boat up to the anchor is less than (conservatively) 100 lbs, why on earth does using the windlass for this purpose hurt it?

No knowledgeable person has yet answered the question.

Jim

[CarinaPDX]

The DC motors used for windlasses are similar to starting motors (in fact, often the same). No doubt you have also heard not to continuously crank your engine for minutes on end. The problem is less the maximum load than the internal heating that results from a large load over a longer time. Like starting motors these windlass motors are usually sealed (no ventilation for heat removal) and there are no heat sinks. The internal heat can become high enough to damage the motor. In our application, bringing in loose chain doesn't require a lot of power; breaking out the anchor does but only for a few seconds, then usually only a minute or two to raise the hook (modest load). Pulling a large boat into wind and seas for minutes requires a lot more power, and hence resultant heating.

At least that's how I see it.

Greg

[Consider that we are talking about power consumption of at least 1kW, and more for this 12mm chain.]

[CarinaPDX]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

No knowledgeable person has yet answered the question.

I hope I just did

The point is that these motors are specified for "intermittent", not "continuous" duty. They create heat at a far higher rate than they can dissipate it, so they have a very limited load/time envelope.

Imagine using your starter motor to move your car - it might get it out of the garage but by the time you reach the street you will need a new motor.

Greg

[Jim Cate]

OK, next time I weigh anchor I will (if conditions are the usual mild wind and sea) do my usual easy pull up to the anchor, and then I'll check the motor's temperature. I'm betting not very hot at all, but will do the measurement.

BTW, the duration of the pull-to-anchor job isn't very long, and isn't continuous, but rather a series of short pulls followed by coasting, using the catenary to shift the boat forward in between pulls. If wind or sea are such as to heavily load the windlass (and that is pretty easy to tell subjectively) we then do use the motor to bring the boat up to the anchor.

We sometimes anchor in >60 feet depths. Both the duration and the load are far greater in hoisting the chain and hook from that depth than in the pull-up. No harm from that, either.

Jim

[CarinaPDX]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

We sometimes anchor in >60 feet depths. Both the duration and the load are far greater in hoisting the chain and hook from that depth than in the pull-up. No harm from that, either.

The problem, of course, is the total load for the time. The heating from pulling the boat is added to the heat of the anchor raising. You just want to keep the total down. In calm conditions I would doubt the total heating would be much of an issue, but pulling a heavy boat into rough seas and strong wind would generate a lot of heat.

If you had a small boat like mine you might have a 1kW windlass; the efficiency of the motor is about 80% so if it is at full load it is putting 200W into the small case. It will heat slowly because the heavy metals represent a large thermal mass. The problem is that it will cool even more slowly - perhaps something like 10% (20W) - SWAG (scientific wild-assed guess). You will need a lot more off time than on time if doing repetitive anchoring drills. It would make an interesting problem for an engineering class, although not that difficult once the thermal mass is known and a maximum temperature is established (state your assumptions ).

I think most cruisers would not abuse their windlasses enough to risk an overheat event, but I'd bet there are failures every year from overloading (if there were a way to prove it). Just as burnout of starter motors is rare - it happens.

Greg

[Redline452]

I never "pull the boat to the anchor using the windlass", but I do use the windlass in bursts to pick up some of the chain catenary, at which point the weight of the chain pulls the boat forward. Another burst of windlass picking up chain, and the chain pulls us forward. Eventually the boat (45' keelboat) picks up a little momentum and it's just bursts of windlass winding in mostly-vertical chain, stopping whenever the chain gets taut. The only heavy pull is when the bow is directly over the anchor, to break it out (and even then, with the chain vertical and taut, the boat's momentum often does that job).

It's a different situation in strong winds, where we do drive the boat at idle speed towards the anchor (using hand signals to the person at the helm) to take the load, but this is fairly infrequent.