Quick anchor windlass issues

[Dsanduril]

Yes, if you open up the end plate where the connections are made that should also expose the back of the motor, which will have another plastic cover over the end. The difficulty will then be whether or not there is enough room within the housing to allow you to extract the brushes.

[ProjectManaia]

Originally Posted by Dsanduril

Yes, if you open up the end plate where the connections are made that should also expose the back of the motor, which will have another plastic cover over the end. The difficulty will then be whether or not there is enough room within the housing to allow you to extract the brushes.

Suppose there is only one way to find out...
Happy times ahead! Anchor lockers are great working spots to start with, so why not raise the level by making the job a bit fiddly...

[Dsanduril]

If you can get the motor out (I know how big an 'if' that is) pretty much any auto electric shop that works on starters and alternators should be able to fix it up for you. Need a real shop, not a 'we just sell replacements' place, but those exist just about everywhere. If the windings are bad they can rewind it for you, or just replace the brushes.

If you do get into the brushes, and they are short, then there will be a lot of brush dust inside (the brushes had to go somewhere) and that stuff is a bear to clean. It's a combination of carbon and copper and will turn everything black. You can usually just blow it out of the motor, but be very careful about where it gets blown to as cleaning it up from elsewhere later is no fun.

Below is a picture of what the new brushes look like for our 1400W. The only difference between new and old is the length.

[ProjectManaia]

Originally Posted by Dsanduril

If you can get the motor out (I know how big an 'if' that is) pretty much any auto electric shop that works on starters and alternators should be able to fix it up for you. Need a real shop, not a 'we just sell replacements' place, but those exist just about everywhere. If the windings are bad they can rewind it for you, or just replace the brushes.

If you do get into the brushes, and they are short, then there will be a lot of brush dust inside (the brushes had to go somewhere) and that stuff is a bear to clean. It's a combination of carbon and copper and will turn everything black. You can usually just blow it out of the motor, but be very careful about where it gets blown to as cleaning it up from elsewhere later is no fun.

Below is a picture of what the new brushes look like for our 1400W. The only difference between new and old is the length.

Perfect! Thank you for that! At least I know what I am looking for :-)
Should make it easier ;-)

[ProjectManaia]

Originally Posted by Dsanduril

If you can get the motor out (I know how big an 'if' that is) pretty much any auto electric shop that works on starters and alternators should be able to fix it up for you. Need a real shop, not a 'we just sell replacements' place, but those exist just about everywhere. If the windings are bad they can rewind it for you, or just replace the brushes.

If you do get into the brushes, and they are short, then there will be a lot of brush dust inside (the brushes had to go somewhere) and that stuff is a bear to clean. It's a combination of carbon and copper and will turn everything black. You can usually just blow it out of the motor, but be very careful about where it gets blown to as cleaning it up from elsewhere later is no fun.

Below is a picture of what the new brushes look like for our 1400W. The only difference between new and old is the length.

Ok, next step is here, just freshly out of the anchor locker...
The thing is i cant open the end cap, it is too tight in there. I think the engine alone should come off, but just about, so the question is, can i take it off or will oil come pouring in my face and i shoukd just take the gear out with it?
Also it seems the motor is mounted upside down(just saw the up and down writing inside, not sure in how far it matters?)

[ProjectManaia]

Originally Posted by ProjectManaia

Ok, next step is here, just freshly out of the anchor locker...
The thing is i cant open the end cap, it is too tight in there. I think the engine alone should come off, but just about, so the question is, can i take it off or will oil come pouring in my face and i shoukd just take the gear out with it?
Also it seems the motor is mounted upside down(just saw the up and down writing inside, not sure in how far it matters?)

Guess i found the issue, the carbon brushes are rather unevenly used... and there was oil inside too....
So cleaning mission tonight and testrun tomorrow....

[Dsanduril]

Minus the oil that's exactly how we found ours. The shorter pair don't have enough pressure from the spring to make good contact.

For replacements, if you don't get them from Quick, make sure they are copper/carbon starter brushes, not straight carbon brushes. You can tell the difference from color, straight carbon are charcoal grey while copper/carbon have a definite copper color. Straight carbon brushes can't carry enough current and will tear up the motor pretty quickly (and then there was no point in doing all this work).

If you're in a very remote place where getting brushes is difficult then you can make 'pads' to go on top of the short brushes to 'lengthen' them. That will increase the spring pressure and they will probably work again 'for a while.'

When we first repaired ours (in a somewhat remote location) the only brushes we could source were larger than the originals (too fat to fit in the holders). It is quite possible to, and we did, file down too large brushes and size them to fit. A pain in the ... but it will work just fine and not difficult to file. OTOH hand, the fewer times you have to get the motor out....

[Helia 44]

I have an interest in this,
As my SABA 50 has a four year old Quick vertical capstan rope head over 13mm chain gypsy.. Now no offence intended, but I am an old "Yachtie" here in Australia and have studied the Quick as I am counting on it as primary equipment with a 100 lb Ultra Plow and heavy 13mm chain in yearly treks up into the islands inside of 1500 miles of the Great Barrier Reef (GBR). I have three things to say, that are relative to this discussion, from my studies:

1) Maintenance
2) Maintenance
3) Maintenance.....

I do not think there is anything wrong with the Quick, but a vertical capstan windlass is exposed to sea water around the seal. The motor on my 1500 w, is off to the side at 90 degrees. On pull down and inspection, mine is like brand new... HOW ZAT MAN???

How is that? The Owner pulled it off (only a few bolts) and examined and serviced it every year.. So I studied it and decided that the gear box, and the motor, would be nice to have as spares. The GBR is a bit remote here in Australia, and you need to be a little more independent than in ready civilized areas.. With taxes and the down Aus $, motor and gear box would have cost me $3000 with shipping and bloody GST, and a whole NEW Quick windlass with all the parts (a new gypsy spare would be nice) anyway the complete windlass was $5000. Sooooo, a new one is being built as we speak, in Italy.

My comment is that instead of bagging out Quick, it does not matter if it is Muir or any other, an afternoon of maintenance once a year if you are working hard it like me, is well spent... ANY vertical capstan windlass should have this annual inspection once a year if you are working it hard. It is far less money, and work, and time, than just running good equipment into the ground until it fails.

Kind regards, "Helia 44" now on a Saba 50 Serenity...

[LongRange]

I doubt oil in and around the rotor is a problem in its own right, unless it is heavily contaminated by metallic particles. The stators on electric motors are sometimes deliberately "potted" with epoxy to reduce vibration and improve longevity, and rotors swimming in oil tend to be cooler.

Even those brushes don't look that bad to me. Sure, they're uneven, but I'd still expect at least a little stuttering if the brushes were the only problem.

I'd still suggest checking the windings with a multimeter for continuity and symmetric resistance. If they're melted or the enamel coating is burnt through, replacing the brushes won't achieve much.

[Dsanduril]

Originally Posted by LongRange

Even those brushes don't look that bad to me. Sure, they're uneven, but I'd still expect at least a little stuttering if the brushes were the only problem.

I'd still suggest checking the windings with a multimeter for continuity and symmetric resistance. If they're melted or the enamel coating is burnt through, replacing the brushes won't achieve much.

Absolutely agree on both comments, however, will say that with ours two brushes were just below the top of the holder. Would have sworn they were still 'good enough.' Went through a lot of testing/winding check/etc. In the end, replacing the brushes is all that was needed, has raised and lowered the anchor a hundred times since then.

The OP did say that the windlass would 'go on strike' from time to time before it quit entirely. That also is in line with what we saw. The windlass wouldn't work, I could jiggle it with the manual handle and then it would work again, until eventually no more. It's only one data point, provided FWIW.

[ProjectManaia]

Originally Posted by Dsanduril

Minus the oil that's exactly how we found ours. The shorter pair don't have enough pressure from the spring to make good contact.

For replacements, if you don't get them from Quick, make sure they are copper/carbon starter brushes, not straight carbon brushes. You can tell the difference from color, straight carbon are charcoal grey while copper/carbon have a definite copper color. Straight carbon brushes can't carry enough current and will tear up the motor pretty quickly (and then there was no point in doing all this work).

If you're in a very remote place where getting brushes is difficult then you can make 'pads' to go on top of the short brushes to 'lengthen' them. That will increase the spring pressure and they will probably work again 'for a while.'

When we first repaired ours (in a somewhat remote location) the only brushes we could source were larger than the originals (too fat to fit in the holders). It is quite possible to, and we did, file down too large brushes and size them to fit. A pain in the ... but it will work just fine and not difficult to file. OTOH hand, the fewer times you have to get the motor out....

So i will try to source the right brushes, but like to have a planB up my sleeve.
If we end up putting "pads" on top to increase pressure, would they be metal or anything? Not entirwky sure if the need to conduct since the brush itself is wired anyways.
Also please excuse my ignorance, but.... when testing ohms on the coils. From where to where do i measure!?

[LongRange]

Originally Posted by ProjectManaia

...when testing ohms on the coils. From where to where do i measure!?

The commutator surfaces are the endpoints for each of the coil windings. Try to figure out where on the commutator a particular winding begins and where it ends - thats where you measure and record resistance.

The key consideration is not a specific resistance value, but rather symmetry around the commutator. If you find that one set of measurements is clearly different to the others, that's a problem. Infinite resistance would mean that coil has completely melted and failed. Significantly lower resistance suggests the insulating enamel has failed, and the adjacent wires in that particular coil are making contact with each other (bad).

Any kind of significant asymmetry would suggest the rotor needs to be rewound. The thickness (diameter) and chemical composition of the wire is important, as is the number and configuration of the windings. If rewinding is done very differently, the new rotor could be underpowered, overpowered (too much current draw and/or heat), wrong RPM, or simply out of balance which would generate lots of vibration.

Hopefully rewinding won't be necessary, because your multimeter will show symmetry around the commutator.

[ProjectManaia]

So symmetry was given on all coils, thank you!,!
And the brushes had good pressure ones i had it all cleaned up and back together, so riht now all is up and ru ning again and after lots of worries all that was needed was a good cleanup!
Thank you all for help and comments, learned a lot here ones more!

[Dsanduril]

Just for information, since you have it working...

The resistance of the coils will be very low. A 1500W motor at 24V takes between 53 and 65A (depending on exact design voltage - between 23 and 28). That results in a coil impedance of less than one-half Ohm (E/I = R, 24/60 = 0.4). And actual resistance is even lower as the impedance gets built with the magnetic field (which is why you have high inrush currents, no impedance to start with).

Very hard to measure accurately with the tools most people have on a boat. You can get that much resistance (and difference in resistance) just from selection of exactly where you place your probe tips. Easy to check for open/broken coils (high resistance), but shorted/non symmetric coils are much more difficult to diagnose with an Ohmmeter (they're usually diagnosed by the blown fuse or tripped circuit breaker).

You're where we were the first time I opened up our windlass. I though the brushes looked OK, cleaned everything, put it back together. Did about 20 round trips with the anchor before it stopped again. So, if anything like ours, I'd recommend sourcing some new brushes while it is working, I suspect the next interval to taking it back apart will be much shorter than the last one

[chris in SG]

Trying to make use of an existing thread..

My Quick 1000W 12v motor needed new brushes and I replaced these with original spares. Now the motor has developed an odd characteristic. It either works perfectly or it works at 50% speed/power, in both directions. Although the "50%" is only my estimate, I am very sure (and please believe me) that it is consistent. If it was a variable degree of power reduction I would not be posting this, I would be concentrating on the power supply and cabling, etc.

So, assuming my estimate of a consistent 50% is correct, is there any way that this can be explained by the intermittent loss of one field coil and, if so, could this be explained by having a poor contact from a single brush?