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Old 25-07-2008, 14:36   #31
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I love how they now have "water" police enforcing their "anchoring" restrictions. I suppose one problem is the effort to fight the ticket in court say 200 miles from where you life. I imagine if some clever lawyer appeared before the local "judge" and explained to him that the water and the bottom belong to the people not the folks who have claimed it for exploitation he would dismiss.

Why doesn't BoatUS take on this issue?
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Old 25-07-2008, 15:53   #32

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Nice! ha ha

Let's get the Catalac 10Ms set up and ready for battle!

Catalac 10Ms must attract the same kind of people. Excellent post.

I'm pleasantly surprised at the responses to this thread, which has gone much better than my other, sort of similar one. Thank you to the people who have contributed.

I wish there was something we all could do... I have no answer at this time though.

Originally Posted by thims View Post
My mother (a kindergarten teacher) taught me an Aesopís fable about a "dog in a manger" and how not allowing someone to use something you were not using is a social "sin". I still believe that, but far too few other people do. As for private property rights, It is IMHO far and away the largest factor in our all too quickly deteriorating society. Any kind of resource is up for grabs and it is not so it can "encourage the productive use of scarce resources", at least not in practice. It is so some pork barreled high roller who has connections with means beyond his own can acquire the "private rights" to something that was either privately or publicly held by others implicitly. Usually the exploitation is immediate "1. Control of the use of the property and 2. The right to any benefit from the property" but if it cannot be immediately exploited then "3. A right to transfer or sell the property or 4. A right to exclude others from the property." kicks in. Soon every drop of water every molecule of oxygen and even the absence of anything else will be "owned" by private interests and be unavailable for use by anybody or anything else. We have carbon credits (the right to pollute has been a popular sell for decades), and now carbon sequestering (wow, I can't believe the lawyers got that pig to fly). It won't end 'till there is nothing left to own. BTW that is why I love cruising and cruising people, they tend to opt out.

Flame suit on.
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Old 25-07-2008, 15:58   #33
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Originally Posted by GordMay View Post
I can empathize with your anguish, as a similar thing happened to me.
I was only about 382 years too late to beat Peter Minuit to an excellent land deal ($26 for a nice little island). The greedy #%*&/x* didnít even reserve a small parcel for my eventual use.

The first-come owners may have (3) a right to transfer or sell the property.
Yeah! And one of my Great Grandfathers owned 350 acres of Long Island, and do you think he would have, at least, left me a small lot.
Faithful are the Wounds of a Friend, but the Kisses of the Enemy are Deceitful! ........
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Old 25-07-2008, 16:10   #34
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and most of us are average.
Ok, I wouldn't push for a poll. I was hoping for more than average for most. It's not much but it feels better.
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Old 25-07-2008, 16:10   #35

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Originally Posted by delmarrey View Post
Yeah! And one of my Great Grandfathers owned 350 acres of Long Island, and do you think he would have, at least, left me a small lot.
Oh man.... !!

Yeah, the mistakes our family elders make sometimes.

Ironically, two of the world's best rated countries to live (happy life, potential to earn big $$, healthcare, etc..) are Ireland and Norway. These are where the two halves of my family left!

That's incredible about the 350 acres on Long Island. Do you know what part or town? In some areas, just a few acres (they don't even use that measurement in many spots close to the city) could be worth millions!

I feel for you on that one, Del. WOW.
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Old 25-07-2008, 16:18   #36
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I know here in florida as long as you don't interfere with a moored boat you can anchor, there are several people right now anchored in the old southpoint anchorage area a few feet from the balls, they arent using a ball, but they are in the field.
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Old 25-07-2008, 16:46   #37
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I always thought that if the mooring ball wasn't being used, it can be shared as long as the owner doesn't come back. If and when they do, you just move on. I guess this does apply in some areas. I guess I was hoping that this was more of a universal maritime courtesy thing among sailors.. Apparently I was either dreaming or just 100 years too late...

Also, I also thought that the water was pretty much free open range unless directly linked to your private property, i.e. slip, dock, etc.. I do recognize a country's sea rights and international waters, but that's on a much larger scale..

Perhaps it's different everywhere as well.. Oh well, need to read all of the fine details before sailing some day..
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Old 25-07-2008, 17:37   #38
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I think Shadow brings up a very good point about the legality of many of those mooring fields.

Municipalities quite often overstep their right to enforce something, using environmental or security concerns to take control of some profit centre.

1....What are the limits of a foreshore lease?

2....In whose jurisdiction do the waters beyond that foreshore lease fall under?

3....Why can not a transient vessel anchor adjacent to an empty mooring buoy to protect his rights for finding a safe haven?

Perhaps some legal minds can answer
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Old 25-07-2008, 17:46   #39
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Another weird aspect of "commercialism"

In Greenport and neighboring Dering Harbor even if you rent a seasonal mooring, you have no rights to it when you leave (say for a weekend cruise). It can be rented to some transient (fine and dandy) but you don't share in the revenue. And you can't tell a bud tp pick up your mooring, because the mooring owner will pop over and collect transient fees. (no sublease no way jose)

How about a raft up? A bid comes to town and you want to be "close" as kissing cousins. No way jose. Not permitted... how about for a little lunch raft up. Nada. Your bud has to find someplace to anchor or pay for a transient mooring.

This is bidness.
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Old 25-07-2008, 19:37   #40

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"I always thought that if the mooring ball wasn't being used, it can be shared"
Shadow, in this day and age, when someone aboard the boat almost always needs to catch a train or make a timetable? The trespass isn't so quickly ignored, and it is trespass, just as pitching your tent on someone's lawn would be. "Oh, there's no one home, I'll just stay in this nice house till the owners get home." Nuh-uh, that hasn't worked since Goldilocks days.<G>

Pelagic, the answers to your questions will depend on what state and municipality you are in, and what regulations apply. The US is one nation but of 50 sovereign states, with many different laws. In some places the bottom is privately owned, in others, federal or state laws apply. "Location location location" means everything.

Sean, Viva La Revolution! Yes, capitalism sucks when you don't have the capital. You know the Golden Rule? Those that have the Gold, make the Rules. The only way to change it is to become a local citizen and resident--not a vagabond--and then vote. And convince your fellow citizens to vote with you. You are the newcomer, the auslander, and the folks who are letting those moorings lie fallow (so to speak) may very well be third or fourth generation, who equally resent all you newcomers crowding their town.

I'd like a little waterside cottage with dock for $20,000, but it seems like a couple of milllion other folks got there before me. And want five million for the cottage. That's the way it goes. Come the revolution...Oh, wait a minute, that hasn't worked out so well anywhere either, has it?[g]
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Old 26-07-2008, 01:26   #41
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How would we view a municipality that installed 20 permanent moorings in an anchorage that previously only accommodated 10 boats? Wouldnít that be an efficacious use of that scarce resource, effectively doubling the capacity? Restrictions might (or might not) be placed upon the duration of stay, to encourage transient use (or, if not, local convenience).
Such a mooring field might be paid for:
- by user fees
- by local taxes
- by a local business association, offset by increased transient revenues
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Old 26-07-2008, 01:29   #42
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These people have made it onto the list through political contributions, bribes, luck of having a grandfather that was into sailing, etc...
Don't knock my grandfather
"Very well, you hand it over and we'll put your town to our rudder and ne'er return" Captain Barbossa, Black Pearl, Pirates of the Caribbean.
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Old 26-07-2008, 04:58   #43
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After 20 years in business, dealing with in my face problems that had to go my way in order to succeed, my whole point to going cruising is that I can sail away from places/situations that are a hassle. Instead of trying to force situations to what I want, I go to situations that match my needs. I fought the fight already, and my freedom was the prize.
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Old 26-07-2008, 05:08   #44
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Originally Posted by bobnlesley View Post
...Harbormasters should remove moorings that aren't used for the season and allow people to anchor...

But where's the profit in that?
Well, for one, the harbormasters could still charge a fee.


The sea is always beautiful, sometimes mysterious and, on occasions, frighteningly powerful.
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Old 26-07-2008, 05:11   #45
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The ownership of the bottom is a hardly settled law. We, as a nation or a collection of states which have control over SOME things and the nation has control over OTHER things.

The Coast Guard is a national organization tasked with protecting and managing our navigable waterways. THEY determine many anchorage areas, channels, and so forth.

It is very unclear, at least to me, how some waters are "ceded" to local control. If I understand correctly unless the property you own encloses (surrounds) a body of water, all other water is available for public use (navigation) to the "high water marK" when accessed from sea.

So in the photo beginning this post you have a body of water which has been "appropriated" (somehow) and is now private property and has been taken from the people of the USA and given to some local "interests".

Huntington Harbor, in LI, NY is an example of such a harbor which has been completely given to private interests except a marked navigable channel and a town dock. Effectively this is like driving through any suburban sub division and you can park or pitch a tent on a huge land or even a vacant lot... because someone owns it.

Of course this is fine and dandy for those who have staked a claim. Isn't this how all the land was taken?
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