Only One Anchor

[High Cotton]

Originally Posted by Seeratlas

I had the chance to examine some detailed photos of the rocna, spade,and manson supreme. A call to a couple of my welding buddies, to locate a plasma cutter, and I've decided to 'roll my own' This is NOT rocket science LOL. I'll let you know how they turn out, (decided to build two, one BIG one for the bow, and a slightly smaller for the stern. ) I already carry two other anchors.

As for the plows, well I'm glad to hear of someone who has never had one one drag. In 20 plus years on the water, you're the first I've heard of.


seer

seer, please keep us posted on your progress, how much time you invest in this, and cost....... I have NO idea what's involved creating one of these things but I've known a couple of welders over the years that could build anything.........

It'll be interesting to see if you're able to pull this off (I believe you will) compared to a "manufactured" model that is quite "pricey"...... good luck!

[Seeratlas]

A couple of observations on the differences between the spade/rocna/manson supreme type and the CQR plow types.

Pretty simple if you think about it, people have been using plows for thousands of years now, and for what? This is a big DUH!!! A plow is designed TO DRAG THRU DIRT!!!! LOL. What makes anyone think it won't do the same thing under water? well the fact is , it DOES!!!..

Now look at the spade/rocna/manson supreme types...remind you of anything? HOW ABOUT A SHOVEL!!!, a shovel is NOT designed to drag thru dirt, but to cut down and into it, then hold onto as much dirt as possible when you try to pull it out....soooo... makes you wonder why it took so long for someone to figure out something kindof like a shovel would probably hold better than something like a plow...The rocna 'chisel' tip to the blade makes a lot of sense to me, i.e. to make sure that the thing can cut thru grass, hard surface dirt whatever, and start the blade diving down into the bottom asap.

In any event, one thing that I'm making sure I add to my new homebrews is a recovery ring behind the blade of the anchor. I have heard reports, especially with the rocna (which has a substantial blade surface area), that they can be hard to break out, therefore making a provision for a substantial recovery line on the back end is probably a good idea if you don't want to be stressing your deck gear all the time.

Lastly, once you get your mind around the 'shovel' concept, fabrication should be a snap. After all, cut a heart shape out of heavy plate steel, use some kind of hydraulic metal press to 'crease' it in the middle to give it concave shape, then cut your shank (using a gas torch or preferably a plasma cutter) to shape, and weld it to the blade. Bend your half circle rod and weld that on, either cut or weld an eye to the back of the blade, sharpen the tip to a chisel angle on the front and you're done. Even in stainless, $3000.00? my A**! LOL. Don't know why someone in china isn't churning these things out by the boat load already. LOL.

I notice in another thread that Wheels has already had a really pretty one made up in stainless and discovered that he can no longer break the thing out under straight windlass power as he was used to doing with his plow.

I'll be out and about for a few weeks, but will put mine together when I get back and post some pictures. in the meantime, Wheel's photos show you all you need to know.

seer

[OldYachtie]

Seer-Maybe you've never heard of Eric Hiscock.....but if it weren't for him, I don't think there would be many cruisers out there making ocean voyages.

[OldYachtie]

Seer-A good anchor, like the Delta, is made with high manganese steel, which is quite difficult to weld without getting cracks in the welds. High manganese steel (12 to 14% manganese) is very strong, very hard, and very ductile. Also, unless you have a really major shop, you would weld the join between the flukes rather than try to bend such thick material.

(I own Metal Art Sculpture, Steel Sculpture by Tim Dunn and know a bit about steel fabrication.) And please, before you sneer at the Delta, read, The Delta Anchor- A cruising test report on the Delta anchor . They are also really cheap at Delta Anchors at Wholesale Prices

Discount Marine and Boat Supplies - Inflatable Sales - Defender also has good prices for Deltas, and everything else, though not that good. You have to factor in shipping, though, before you know if you are getting a good price or not. I have seen firms with amazingly low prices charge surprisingly high shipping costs (Portable Generators, Heaters + Wood Stoves, Snow Blowers, Pressure Washers | Northern Tool + Equipment) -which inspires cynical speculation. I have no connection with any firm mentioned above, except for Steel Silhouettes.

[MidLandOne]

Originally Posted by Seeratlas

Pretty simple if you think about it, people have been using plows for thousands of years now, and for what? This is a big DUH!!! A plow is designed TO DRAG THRU DIRT!!!! LOL. What makes anyone think it won't do the same thing under water? well the fact is , it DOES!!!..

I think that if you were familiar with farm plows you would know that they have no physical resemblance with plow anchors whatsoever and furthermore work in an entirely different manner.

While I am the first to say that modern design is almost always an improvement so am not knocking the newer anchors, I have to say that I am another who has never had a problem with plow type anchors. That may be because I use heavier than normally recommended ones so probably have similar area to what the modern designs achieve with lighter weight, and as I think another has said it is the whole anchoring system that makes the deal not just the lump on the bottom end.

[Mike Banks]

With thermit powder one can weld damn near any kind of heavy plate steel--all you need do is clamp it all together, make up a fireclay mould, let it dry thoroughly, fill it with the alloy powder you require, then set it alight with a bit of magnesium ribbon. Woohoo!!

[OldYachtie]

Unless you know this for a fact, ie. that this works well with manganese steel, I wouldn't do it--I have a metal working shop, (see Metal Art Sculpture, Steel Sculpture by Tim Dunn ) and I wouldn't make my own anchor. There is not only the issue of getting a good solid weld in a somewhat exotic material, but issues of crystallization of the metal, temper, carbon precipitation, etc. I do a lot DIY, and am not bashful-I designed and am building a 65' catamaran, though I paid an engineer to do some calculations for me-but I would get a certified welder with experience in working with manganese steel to do this. Woohoo would not be my first reaction to having an anchor come apart in a storm with a rocky or coral laden lee shore behind me.

Originally Posted by Mike Banks

With thermit powder one can weld damn near any kind of heavy plate steel--all you need do is clamp it all together, make up a fireclay mould, let it dry thoroughly, fill it with the alloy powder you require, then set it alight with a bit of magnesium ribbon. Woohoo!!

[OldYachtie]

To bring a little math into this discussion, steel can vary from 36,00 psi to 250,000 psi in yield strength, depending on the alloy and heat treatment. That is almost 700% variation, which is why I wouldn't just "wing it."

So, a high tensile steel anchor of 40 pounds could have the same strength as a mild steel anchor of 280 pounds, if of the same design. If you copied the design of a high tensile anchor and used mild steel, your anchor would have as little as 1/7 the strength of the anchor you copied.

And, of course, you might be anchored upwind of me or a buddy in a stiff blow. This assumes good workmanship, of course. I wouldn't take this for granted if the anchor was made on a beach with Thermite.

[High Cotton]

MANSON's website sez their SUPREME is THE strongest anchor available and proven by tests with "LLoyds"...................
my question is....... why don't ALL anchors present themselves for "testing" by LLOYDS, and that way everybody will have a clear pic of AND "rating".....

I understand that LLOYDS is not free, but seems like a small price to pay if their anchor is worth it's salt!.........

There apparently is a reason they don't get rated or tested by a third party....
I'm just curious.

[Seeratlas]

Geez yachtie, don't know quite where to start.

First of all, I don't recall saying anything about Eric Hiscock, unless you're implying he never had an anchor drag and that's just plain hogwash, to put it politely. It's been 40 something years since I read Cruising Under Sail (think that was the name) and I don't recall him saying he never drug an anchor.. and I don't wish to demean Mr. Hiscock as a noted sailing authority, nor his circumnavigation accomplishments, but if you talk to people who knew him, like all of us with the exception of Christ (according to the Christians) he 'didn't get em all right'..for example,well, here in fact, let me give you a quote from an event in 1968..

"Another visitor was Eric Hiscock with his wife Susan aboard Wanderer IV. He was the famous author of 'Cruising under Sail' and other nautical books. He wore glasses that looked liked bottle bottoms, whenever his boat hove into view people would yell, 'watch out, Eric's coming!' and get their fenders ready.

Now, having been raised on a ranch, long long ago...I do know what a classic plow looked like, I can cite you some pictures on the net...in fact here's one

Red Plow Photo -- A red plow.

Well, maybe I'm blind but that looks more like a CQR, than say a baboon....in fact rather a more than passing resemblance to the present 'plow' anchors...they do CALL THEM "PLOW" anchors.don't they?...geez I WONDER WHY!!!!

DUH!!!!

In any event, I submit tho I'm not going to take the time to demonstrate the physics as it is patently obvious, and I've long shelved away that particular aspect of my education in the dark recesses of the little grey matter I have remaining, that the geometry of a plow anchor tends to split the earth above it as it has a vertical blade (or two triangulated inclined planes if you will) ; as opposed to the spade,rocna, manson supreme types that tend to cut down into, cup and compress it. Next time you're at the beach form a "V" with your two hands and push forward horizontally into the sand and compare the resistance to cupping your hands and pushing forward and down like a shovel....

Ok, metallurgy...well, 36k is a bit low, I assume you're talking about yield strength as opposed to ultimate tensile right? I'm more familiar with the 45 psi to 175kpsi stuff, essentially regular A36 mild to some exotic High Tensile alloys. In any event, lets stick to your 36k figure which means to deform the stuff. Ok, how much does your boat weigh? What's the surface area in square inches of a rocna/spade/ or manson supreme? Ok, if that concept troubles you I must be going too fast. Try this one. Can you lift your boat from your windlass or will it tear out the foredeck? How about your bow roller? What size chain you using? What's its yield strength? 8k? 10k? 20k? (see below If you have a chain and shackles that will take more than 36k in tension, you must have one helluva rig. (My canadian built steel boat could in fact be suspended by any one of her 3 big bits, and she's just about 40k, but that's because I like survivability in a bluewater boat. You're mileage may vary.) ( I often think the cannucks like to overbuild their blue water boats just to piss off their American counterparts

Now, as to welding, sure there are lots of types of steel, and that there are a lot of different considerations in welding different alloys. I don't know why you assume I nor my friends know nothing about it, nor have access to the equipment to do this. Pretty silly really to make such assumptions about people you know little about. In my garage right now I have 3 different stick welders-2 of em AC buzz boxes and 1 AC/DC machine; 2 migs, 2 different gas outfits, and one BIG ass Miller Tig machine. While not the 'pro from dover' I've used them all on everything from jewelry to loaders..and my buddies are all pro's, hell one of em has been building steel boats for coming up 35 years and welding for a living on everything else during that time. Another builds parts for the space shuttles soo I think we can handle something as complex and demanding as an anchor....

Ok, thermite? jesus, Mike, who's junk in the sun team you been working with? (I'm betting Mike will know what that means) LOL. Last time I used thermite was to disable military equi , well let's just say its very good at turning mechanical things made of metal that *work* into mechanical things that *don't work* and does it in a hurry.. I'm with Yachtie on this one wouldn't recommend the technique but I can personally guarantee you'd get a hell of a weld pool going LOL.

Lastly, Yachtie, bottom line, even a properly welded mild steel anchor of suitable dimensions of this design would be more than strong enough to hold better than the equivalent weight plow type, and I suspect the same could be said for something weighing substantially less, and still bite better in most if not all bottoms. But just so you know, I was planning on using one of the swedish high tensile steels in dimensions to get me a weight of between 70 and 80 lbs. I suspect it will be strong enough.

When I get mine done I'll hook it to the dozer and drag it across the pasture. What size nylon line should I bust for you to prove the anchor will do the job?

seer

oh, btw your 3/8" BBB chain's working load limit? should be about 2700 lbs.. now.that's usually about 1/4th of the ultimate breaking strength.and *most* people improperly use an incorrect shackle so your chain *might* (not *is* but *might*) be compromised somewhat, but, even under optimum conditions, you got something over what 11,000 lbs before your rode parts? more than likely taking some deck parts with it.?

. Betcha a dollar to a doughnut I can build my anchor to handle 2700 lbs of pull without coming apart heheheheh, I'll let you know.



Ok, lets wax philosophical here for a moment. Those who have read any of my posts know I tend to do that, so don't want to ruin my 'streak'. This willingness to take the word of advertising /marketing types at face value is dangerous. Give you a simple example. For thousands of years mankind was told by its leaders the earth was flat, had to be right? Yet evidence to the contrary has always been there, and any ape could figure it out, and I'd wager more than one thoughtful soul in prehistory did.

It has occurred to me that intelligence is a function NOT of intuitively divining the correct answer, but asking the right questions- after which arriving at the correct answer is trivial. For example take our flat earth hypothesis.

I mean, look at the sun, what shape is it? What shape is the moon? Why do ships sailing away disappear hull first and last thing you can see is the mast? Why do ships arriving show up first at the masthead? What's the significance of shadows? What about an eclipse...lets see...the sun went over there, and the moon is over there, what the hell is causing that shadow? and why is that shadow shaped in an arc? ...

We're talking historical DUH!!! here...and to think that certain religious leaders had people imprisoned, tortured and killed for thinking differently. Think outside the box, and I mean outside the TV box...they're trying to sell you something guys...there's no way these anchors should cost what these guys want for them..... no way in hell.

seer

[MidLandOne]

Originally Posted by Seeratlas

Well, maybe I'm blind but that looks more like a CQR, than say a baboon....

Yes, we will have to put it down to your being blind.

[Mike Banks]

Thermit is indeed useful for setting off unexploded ordinance, naval mines, melting through vital equipment parts and destroying radio masts and power pylon supports etc--lotsa fun--but it is also used for in-situ welding of railway iron tracks and steel propellors--in fact any situation requiring high temperature and long cooling times, and it can be alloyed to produce a similar weld metal to the parent.

Against it is the need to have a good mould and to have the parent metals securely clamped so that they do not move and fracture the mould. Thermit welding is really a casting process. It is very strong and should be used more than it is--since there are no chill zones in the final weld. Yes it does get very hot--that is why the mould must be of such good quality and dry.

Check the welds in the rail tracks. Most, especially in Australia, will be thermit welds. Bloody wonderful stuff--aluminium powder mixed with iron oxide powder--and other powdered metals in proportion to the parent metal alloys may be included so the weld will match the parent metals--all things going smoothly.

Cheap to make and fun to use--it will weld heavy stuff quite well. No use at all on light guage metals though. It just dissolves them. Not quite sure about the Junk in the Sun--better clue me in--

Do not rely on the welds of your anchor made at home by any process. Have them tested.

[Seeratlas]

Originally Posted by MidLandOne

Yes, we will have to put it down to your being blind.

gee, wonder if I'm the only one.

seer

[Seeratlas]

Originally Posted by High Cotton

MANSON's website sez their SUPREME is THE strongest anchor available and proven by tests with "LLoyds"...................
my question is....... why don't ALL anchors present themselves for "testing" by LLOYDS, and that way everybody will have a clear pic of AND "rating".....

I understand that LLOYDS is not free, but seems like a small price to pay if their anchor is worth it's salt!.........

There apparently is a reason they don't get rated or tested by a third party....
I'm just curious.

HC, I'll keep track of cost and time, and if we come up with something clever, I'll video it and send you a file copy.

As to the LLoyds thing, the fellow here from Rocna had some comments on the methodology and value of the LLoyd's cert. Frankly, from the pictures I've seen it *appears* the Rocna is more heavily constructed than the Supreme, both in the blade and the shank. Course, Yachtie could be correct in presuming the Supreme to be manufactured out of a superior grade steel.

Further, I'm not sure what the longitudinal cutout in the Manson shank is for unless its an alternate mounting location for the rode shackle so that you can run forwards over your anchor (if its stuck) and pull it out back end first when the shackle slides to the butt end. If that's the case, one potential problem I see is that if you were anchored where the water beneath you reversed its flow, i.e. a tidal area, you could conceivably float over the top of your anchor and inadvertently pull it out and drag it around butt-end first making it pretty much useless, whereas most other anchors would pull out, rotate around and hopefully reset. I like the time honored recovery mount on the butt end for a separate line for that kind of thing, plus the float on that line lets everyone know where your anchor is located.

seer

[OldYachtie]

Well, one reason is that many anchors are from countries that aren't all that close to Great Britain, culturally. The U.S. isn't a part of the Commonwealth, for example. Lloyd's approval means very little to Americans. The Danforth, Bulwagga, Fortress, and some others are American. The Bugel Wasi is German designed, and I think Swiss made. The Spade and Sword are from Tunisia with French ownership.

Simpson Lawrence anchors, including the Delta, have been approved by Lloyd's, "the Delta™ anchor has Lloyd's Register Type Approval as a High Holding Power anchor and is specified as the primary anchor used by numerous National Lifeboat organisations." SL, is of course, British. Bruce was British. Now only knock-offs are made, with SL making the one that is probably best distributed.

SL also mentions that their Delta is made with manganese steel, but they don't give specifics. Two high tensile alloys of manganese steel have tensile strengths of 220,000 psi and 235,000 psi.

Other anchors tell you a little about their construction. The Danforth Hi-Tensile, for example is made, they say, with 200,000 psi rated steel. The Rocna shank is made with steel rated at (I discovered with some research,) 120,000 psi.

Fortress anchors, which are made of aluminum magnesium alloy, give holding power claims in pounds in soft mud and hard sand. Fortress references the ABS, ABYC, and U.S. Navy, which are more likely to be references used in the U.S. Aluminum-Magnesium alloys may have a tensile strength of up to 83,000 psi, and as little as 27,000 psi. "Marine" grade aluminum (5086- H116) has a tensile strength of 42,000 psi.

Manson (like Rocna, from New Zealand,) actually says nothing at all about the materials of which their anchors are made, and makes no specific performance claims, basing their reputation solely upon Lloyd's. I have been unable to discover any specifics of Lloyd's requirements for anchors. Rocna has licensed a Canadian company to manufacture their anchors, as well.

* * * * * *

Another issue for those planning to make their own anchors is galvanizing. High-strength steels should not be pickled, but rather sand-blasted before galvanizing. Also, some alloys will become brittle if heated enough to galvanize. Consult with the steel manufacturer if using high strength steel, before galvanizing.