Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on Cruisers Forums. Advertise Here
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 15-08-2012, 13:40   #16
Registered User
 
bruce smith's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: puget sound/ caribbean
Boat: never wrecked a boat while awake or sober
Posts: 331
Re: No Windlass - Largest Anchor ?

I carry a 66lb bruce as a heavy anchor on my 12 ton boat.
I used to use a 44 lb bruce as an every day hook .
This is what I found about the bruce. There is a lot of edge area presented to the bottom when first estting. ( opposed to a cqr or danforth type, which have points)
Any plastic bag or waterlogged stick or piece of old line can prevent a bruce from getting in .
Once in , hey , it is a very strong hook , but they are dangerous in a case of popping them out in a quick emergency. Especially, a 5 ton boat may not even set it . Diving on it , completely different story.
Just my real world thoughts on the bruce.

In a hurricane , 3 screw hooks beat a monster anchor , but other boats dragging onto a well moored vessel are still a big danger.
A 45 pound cqr ( not generic plow) with different lengths of chain, is how I would go . The second piece of chain coming out only when the shtf.
bruce smith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-08-2012, 15:53   #17
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gloucester, MA
Boat: CS 36t
Posts: 387
Re: No Windlass - Largest Anchor ?

Since your question is what is the heaviest that you can practically manage, how about setting up a test and finding out for yourself? Depending on your age, condition, etc, you will not have the same limits as everyone else.

If you can find some old lifting weights or a bunch of chain or anything with the same density of steel, you can attach it to a line and lower it up and down at your slip. Once you do it a number of times, you will decide what is practical.

Whether this is sufficient for your boat is a whole different story. ABYC recommends designing everything to 2700 lbs for your 34' boat. In sand, a new generation (note: I would not include bruce in this, the setting is really good but the holding power is low comparatively) of 35lbs might do the trick. Keep in mind that anchors will not generate the same holding power each set even in the same bottom so you really should pick a point lower than the average holding power for a given bottom as to what you consider to be the reliable holding power. I really wish they would publish the standard deviation when doing anchor tests but they don't do enough pulls to make it really meaningful. If you are in medium mud, it may well take the same anchor of 50 lbs. If you are in silt or leaves, the anchor would have to be impractically large.
klem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-08-2012, 16:20   #18
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Montegut LA.
Boat: Now we need to get her to Louisiana !! she's ours
Posts: 3,421
Re: No Windlass - Largest Anchor ?

Im 74 and use a windless! But when I was 50 I pulled a 50 LB Danforth, on all 3/8 BBB chain by hand if I was in 20 ft of water! but if it was deeper I used a hand windless, which I had, but in shallow water it was easier to pull by hand. I sorta feel that having at least a Hand operated Windless will be better as if the wind really kicks up and ya have to pull the anchor, your gonna need some help even with a 35/40 lb anchor and chain !! and if ya can use ALL CHAIN ! just a old guy who has done all the anchor dances that could be done !!LOL
__________________
Bob and Connie
bobconnie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-08-2012, 17:02   #19
Registered User
 
Captain Bill's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Punta Gorda, Fl
Boat: Endeavourcat Sailcat 44
Posts: 2,883
Re: No Windlass - Largest Anchor ?

Azul, I see you are in Beaufort NC. I kept my boat in nearby Oriental for 7 years and only know of one sailboat with a danforth type anchor and that guy never anchors out overnight. You say the bottom is mostly sand. The only place I know where the bottom is mostly sand in immediately around Beaufort. If you go any distance at all (say 2 miles in any direction) you'll find everything from hard packed clay to soft mud. If you never plan to leave Beaufort a danforth type might work assuming you can find some place with little current that never changes direction. I know of one other guy who got a danforth with his purchased boat. Within six months he had a Manson supreme. He was tired of dragging everytime the wind changed. I recommend anything but a danforth type for anything but a lunch hook or in soft mud. Even there they are only superior to plow types, not Mansons or Roncas.
Captain Bill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-08-2012, 17:07   #20
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Wherever the wind takes me
Boat: Bristol 41.1
Posts: 991
Re: No Windlass - Largest Anchor ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobconnie View Post
Im 74 and use a windless! But when I was 50 I pulled a 50 LB Danforth, on all 3/8 BBB chain by hand if I was in 20 ft of water! but if it was deeper I used a hand windless, which I had, but in shallow water it was easier to pull by hand. I sorta feel that having at least a Hand operated Windless will be better as if the wind really kicks up and ya have to pull the anchor, your gonna need some help even with a 35/40 lb anchor and chain !! and if ya can use ALL CHAIN ! just a old guy who has done all the anchor dances that could be done !!LOL


"if the wind really kicks up and ya have to pull the anchor,"

This is the true test. I regularly hauled #35 hook plus chain in settled weather. But when things kick up, and you have to get way on RIGHT NOW, you could find yourself in dire straits very quickly trying to haul your ground tackle aboard, at night, in the rain, against the wind, heaving foredeck, etc.

Don't be too quick to dismiss some mechanical advantage. Also, make some provision for disconnecting your rode in an emergency - maybe with a float for future recovery. Never can tell what might happen some dark and stormy night...
redsky49 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-08-2012, 17:07   #21
Moderator
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 17,982
Re: No Windlass - Largest Anchor ?

G'Day Azul,

As usual, anchoring queries bring forth a lot of passionately held theories and experiences, and it can be hard to separate out the good advice from the bad.

From your OP, the things that stand out for me are "anchor out all the time" and "self insured". That combination surely suggests very conservative ground tackle specifications. Speaking as one who has lived mostly at anchor for the past 25 years in a great variety of locations and anchoring conditions, I can not recommend using any non-chain tackle (other than snubbers). There are simply too many failure modes for rope rode, and the penalty for a parted anchor connection is too great for the self insured. For your boat 8mm/5/16" chain would be appropriate in a g-30 or better g-40 grade. For the anchor, some one of the modern anchors in the 40 pound region would be appropriate for all reasonable conditions. Frankly, the idea of normally using a smaller anchor and switching to a bigger one when bad wx threatens is a bad idea. Too often the bad wx is not forecast correctly, or happens when you are away from the boat or pops up in the dark of night. Changing anchors at such times may be impossible, dangerous or just bloody difficult. Why set yourself up for this?

So, how to get that mess back aboard? Hoisting by hand can be done under best conditions: shallow water, little or no wind and sea. But if it becomes necessary to move when things are not so benign life becomes difficult indeed. For instance, if you should drag out into deeper water and have a hundred feet of chain hanging straight down as you head for the reef behind you... or any of the various bad scenes that can and do crop up for the perennial anchor-out. Yeah, I know that I'm sounding like the typical CF doom and gloom purveyor, but Ann and I have experience a few challenging situations like these over the years and I was damn glad to have at least a manual windlass to help us survive. Used manual windlasses do show up at reasonable prices, and I would suggest that it would be money well spent, even if your budget is stretched from your new acquisition (as it most likely is!).

But, if you just must carry on with hand hoisting, please consider putting a chain stopper on the foredeck. This device, which simply prevents the chain from running out whilst letting you pull it up, will save your hands and back from many of the bad things that can happen while hoisting, and in particular will make it easier to break out the anchor using the natural pitching of the boat to lever the hook out of the bottom.

I've pontificated enough, mate... good luck with your adventures

Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II, back in Port Cygnet once again
Jim Cate is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 15-08-2012, 17:07   #22
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Hudson Valley N.Y.
Boat: contessa 32
Posts: 826
Re: No Windlass - Largest Anchor ?

Remember: just because you can haul up all your ground tackle by hand in benign conditions,can you do it in a panic when the wind pipes up and you start dragging thru all the other boats towards the rocks etc. ? This is when you will most likely damage your back,toes, fingers , and marriage.
So what to do?
1. Don't go for over kill, keep weights manageable
2.If it's the ultimate storm ,use multiple anchors and rodes.Check into a hotel.
3.Get the crap off the decks. Surf boards ,wind chargers ,jerry cans hard dodgers etc.etc all increase top hamper and will require much greater holding power not to mention issues in big seas underway.
4.Use chain, at least enough for 5/1 scope and nylon after that.
5. Practice
6. Consider a chain pawl for your 35' boat (the poor mans windlass)[faster too].
7. So what do I think are the best anchors to consider? Yup it's the mansion supreme and the danforth/fortress type.Have tried most others,they usually hold too, but the mansion has never failed me after 3 years and the danforths have held me for forty some ,and in some very trying conditions using very little chain.
BTW: I always anchor out.
mrohr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-08-2012, 17:13   #23
Moderator
 
Adelie's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: La Ciudad de la Misión Didacus de Alcalá en Alta California, Virreinato de Nueva España
Boat: Cal 20
Posts: 13,434
Re: No Windlass - Largest Anchor ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azul View Post
The boat I recently purchased came with a tiny Danforth and a larger but still small 25# Danforth and 6 feet of chain. There is a bow anchor roller. Presently the boat is still temporarily slipped where it was purchased but I plan to anchor out most if not all of the time, and probably can eventually find or make my own mooring locally.

From what I have learned so far, a 65 pound storm anchor (Bruce or other modern type) with 200 feet of 5/16 BBB chain is in order for storm ground tackle or just sleeping well at night, although usually people in this area use Danforth anchors I suppose due to the sandy bottom. For a 9500 pound boat that is self insured residing for now in an area prone to getting frequent "mullet blows" what is the largest anchor that a typical fit male can get on board without a windlass or a hernia? Would an anchor retrieval ball be a good idea for a largish anchor? Roughly what predicted wind strength should cause me to put the boat up "on the hard" instead of trying to ride out the storm?
If you interpolate the ABYC anchor loading table to the nearest foot for length and .2' for beam the beam governs at 10 and the load would be about 1800lb in 42kt wind. This is a really really conservative number so no reason so assume higher.

For 1800lb load 1/4" G4 (high Test) is adequate. While for the same size chain G4 is more expensive than G3, for similar strength chain prices are about the same so you can get similar lengths of 1/4"G4 and 5/16"G3 for about the same number of bucks.

The G4 weighs about 1/3lb per foot less than 5/16", so in 60' of water you would be trying to hoist 20lb less back on board.

1/2" or 9/16" nylon 3 strand would be appropriate for your boat and chain combo.

The normal recommended anchor size for a Cal34 would be about 25lb for most plow/claw/spoon anchors. This recommendation is for protected waters.
A storm anchor is two sizes larger , 45lb, and would be the appropriate size for offshore cruising. I would sleep fine with a 45lb anchor assuming decent seabed (sand, medium mud, gravel) until the boat became too bouncy for comfortable sleep.

I would not use a fluke anchor normally regardless of weight savings as resetting is iffy in wind or current shift. The exception would be soft or very soft mud where the fluke anchors may be the only anchors that have much holding power. I would get an FX-37 Fortress anchor (21lb), a boat length of 3/8"G4 (60lb) and 300' of 5/8"nylon as a secondary/storm anchor kept on the bow

In rock, coral or weed I would want a Luke anchor. I have heard the Bulwagga is decent in weeds but they are not being made currently.

A named storm is the point I would start thinking about pulling the boat out of the water or seeking a hidey-hole. A hidey-hole might be preferable as a lot of folks may be doing the same and not all of those boats will be tied down very well, think dominoes in a boat yard. East Coast folks probably have better advice on this subject than I can give.

If I had to stay at anchor I would put every anchor I owned out including the dinghy anchor.

I am a believer in chain, but not all chain. 100-150' should do you. With 125' of chain I would be comfortable on a rocky bottom in mild condition up to 50'. With more wind or current I would be comfortable in deeper water because I know the drag on the boat would keep the nylon up off the bottom. In sand, mud, weeds, gravel it would be deeper in mild conditions.

The key to getting this aboard is a chain stopper, a bow roller and somebody (or autopilot) to steer the boat. With a chain stopper you don't loose ground every time you pull up another segment of chain.

The way it works is the chain comes over the bow roller, immediately thru the stopper to where you are sitting on deck. You may have to sit back a ways to get a fair lead. With a lot of load you two-hand the chain and pretend you are rowing, as you lean forward for a new grip the stopper holds the chain in place. Being horizontal your body weight helps you pull whereas if your were pulling straight up you would be lifting your body mass too. As the load lightens you may be able to hand over hand the chain, depends on how strong you are or become.

The reason for the steering help is because this may take some time.

The heaviest load is going to be when you just start to lift the anchor off the seabed. In 60' of water you will be lifting 47lb of chain (1/4") and 45lb of anchor, 92lb total, probably doable for most men and women that aren't very small. Figure that you will pull 3' per grip so it will take 20 grips.

Keep in mind that a manual windlass will require just as much energy to retrieve the anchor and chain but that the effort will be smoother so perhaps a bit less fatiguing.
__________________
Num Me Vexo?
A house is but a boat so poorly built and so firmly run aground no one would think to try and refloat it.
Adelie is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 15-08-2012, 17:15   #24
Moderator Emeritus
 
Pblais's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Hayes, VA
Boat: Gozzard 36
Posts: 8,700
Images: 15
Send a message via Skype™ to Pblais
Re: No Windlass - Largest Anchor ?

Quote:
Somewhere above 50' total weight, hoisting anchor is going to get real old real fast.
This is what it comes down to. the other issue is when the rode is coming up all coated in soft mud the mess and associated cleanup gets even older even faster. A windlass with a wash down is just so nice when you have hauled it by hand for very long. It's not what your limit is of what you can do but when the dropping of the hook becomes something you decide if you need to do it or not knowing what hauling it in will take. Anchorages start to look unattractive.

A 35 Bruce would be OK for you. A 35 Manson would be ideal. The Danforth in mud may not be so easy it set. If you anchor a lot all chain is the gold standard. 5/16 chain would be suitable. if you can't go all chain a full boat length of chain is worth the hassle.
__________________
Paul Blais
s/v Bright Eyes Gozzard 36
37 15.7 N 76 28.9 W
Pblais is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-08-2012, 17:40   #25
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 2,687
Re: No Windlass - Largest Anchor ?

Bob seems to be the first one to mention that it is differant in a blow.GOOD ON YOU OLD SALT! All this talk about how much you can lift means nothing if you have to bail out of an anchorage in 25/30 knots of wind. Unless you have an expert at the helm/throttle you are going to have a hell of a time hand pulling. My first cruising boat came with 30 fathoms of 5/16 chain and a 25lb CQR. It was fine for around San Francisco Bay, but a couple of trips to the Channel Islands and their deep anchorages just about killed me. I was young and fit, but I decided I didnt like starting out on an overnight passage tired and sweaty. I put a manual windlass on and loved it. My next boat came with rope and chain, and I didnt like it a bit, but I put a manual windlass and learned to deal with it. I would have much prefered all chain. My last boat (Peterson 44) came with a bogus 45lb plow that I dragged all over the place untill I bought a 60lb Original CQR. It had about 60 foot of 3/8 chain and an electric capstan type windlass that worked OK but I still wished I had all chain(except for my bank account). If you know that your engine will always start and that you have a very good person on the helm, then go without a windlass. but can you depend on that? My ideal set up would be 40 fathoms of what ever size chain is right for your boat and the heaviest anchor of your choice(matter of opinion) that the windlass can handle, and a verticle shaft windlass with a mechanical backup. Also, using 1/2 inch nylon can be very hard on your hands. I learned that the hard way. Even 9/16th is better and 5/8 is much easier if you are pulling your guts out. I have spent several thousands of nights on the hook and not hit shore yet(knock on wood) _____Grant.
gjordan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-08-2012, 17:42   #26
Registered User

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Miami Florida
Boat: Ellis Flybridge 28
Posts: 3,780
Re: No Windlass - Largest Anchor ?

Azul, You mentioned an anchor retrival ball. I know lots of power boaters who use them to good effect but to be honest I've never heard of a sailor using one. It sure would take a lot of the work out of retriving a big anchor. The power of the boat lifts the anchor to the surface and you just have to get it aboard. Have any of you sailors used one?
Anchor Retrival System
__________________
Retired from Hopkins-Carter Marine Supplies
HopCar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-08-2012, 17:43   #27
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: www.peterpowell.ca
Posts: 128
Re: No Windlass - Largest Anchor ?

I am 66, short and average strength. Cruising from Oregon to Chile to French Polynesia was done with a 45 lb fake Bruce and 300' 5/16 G4 chain. No windlass.
Some anchorages were deep (for me) at 60' and I am singlehanding. Hauling the 150 (e.g.) feet of chain/anchor up was ok in benign conditions but I had to haul more than once in wind (+20 kts) because of various problems and then it was damn hard. Motoring into wind, running forward to haul 15 feet up and then running back to get the damn boat going the right direction...you get the picture.
I bought an electric windlass in Papeete. (Euro zone and the windlass, Lofrans, is Italian so price was good). That worked better but the gypsy (5/16) and chain (5/16) would not work together well--skipping. Then I bent the shank of the anchor (42' steel sloop about 15,000#) --don't know how and don't know where--so I tried for a bigger, real Bruce. Couldn't find one. Bought an Aussie knock-off 66# 'Bruce' and changed gypsy to 10 mm and bought new chain 10 mm. They seem to marry well but have not trialed yet.
I mention the mismatching gypsy/chain deal because it is a real problem so make sure the guy you buy the stuff from knows his stuff.
Pete
__________________
'Soul Upon the Ocean'
blog
rigormortis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-08-2012, 17:54   #28
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Bellingham
Boat: Outbound 44
Posts: 8,819
Re: No Windlass - Largest Anchor ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HopCar View Post
Azul, You mentioned an anchor retrival ball. I know lots of power boaters who use them to good effect but to be honest I've never heard of a sailor using one. It sure would take a lot of the work out of retriving a big anchor. The power of the boat lifts the anchor to the surface and you just have to get it aboard. Have any of you sailors used one?
Anchor Retrival System
Yikes, did you read the directions for this contraption? Run past your anchor at 6 to 8 kts. Hope you have some very solid deck gear.
__________________
Paul
Paul L is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-08-2012, 18:07   #29
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 2,687
Re: No Windlass - Largest Anchor ?

Rereading this thread I must apolagise to the other people that said raising anchor in a blow is far differant than in a calm. Seems like many people have learned this lesson(probably the hard way).____Grant.
gjordan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-08-2012, 18:34   #30
Registered User

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Miami Florida
Boat: Ellis Flybridge 28
Posts: 3,780
Re: No Windlass - Largest Anchor ?

"Yikes, did you read the directions for this contraption? Run past your anchor at 6 to 8 kts. Hope you have some very solid deck gear. "

All of the boats I've seen do it seem to have strong enough deck hardware. I've never done it but I've been aboard several boats when it was done. Never seen anything break. You could ease past the anchor until it breaks out and then speed up to raise it. I'm just not sure a sailboat could generate the required speed.
__________________
Retired from Hopkins-Carter Marine Supplies
HopCar is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
anchor, windlass

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 14:48.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.