New Anchoring Setup for Bavaria 40 Cruiser

[kas_1611]

First eleven posts in this thread were copied from "Photos of Anchors Setting".
They created a obvious drift in this deservedly popular and excellent thread, so better to continue this side discussion on the separate thread.

================================================== =============

Originally Posted by DoubleWhisky

Main reason for dragging was of course pathetically undersized 25 kg Delta on 46 ft, medium displacement boat

According to the size tables (yes I know most of us don't believe them) a 25kg Delta is already oversized for a 46ft boat. The guide suggests a 20kg Delta for a 44 to 54ft boat. OK so the table is based on an average boat doing average anchoring in average conditions but that's what the majority of average sailors do.

So the owner of this 46ft boat already had a larger anchor than the guide so to call it "pathetically" undersized is not constructive. How big a lump of metal do you suggest they should have on the front? Remembering that there are limits to the weight you can haul on a windlass.

Pathetically undersized would be a 12 or 16kg Delta on a 46ft boat.

Sorry but all this negativity about anchor sizes is beginning to detract from this thread. It's not the size but what you do with it that matters.

Keiron

[DoubleWhisky]

Originally Posted by kas_1611

According to the size tables (yes I know most of us don't believe them) a 25kg Delta is already oversized for a 46ft boat. The guide suggests a 20kg Delta for a 44 to 54ft boat. OK so the table is based on an average boat doing average anchoring in average conditions but that's what the majority of average sailors do.

So the owner of this 46ft boat already had a larger anchor than the guide so to call it "pathetically" undersized is not constructive. How big a lump of metal do you suggest they should have on the front? Remembering that there are limits to the weight you can haul on a windlass.

Pathetically undersized would be a 12 or 16kg Delta on a 46ft boat.

Sorry but all this negativity about anchor sizes is beginning to detract from this thread. It's not the size but what you do with it that matters.

Keiron

Rocna recommends its 33 kg anchor for this boat. Mantus advice is 38.6 kg (85 lb). Delta is rated as HHP, not SHHP, so should weight about 30% more than appropriate Rocna.
Wish You good luck with sticking to Delta sizing chart.

Cheers,

Tomasz

[kas_1611]

Originally Posted by DoubleWhisky

Rocna recommends its 33 kg anchor for this boat. Mantus advice is 38.6 kg (85 lb). Delta is rated as HHP, not SHHP, so should weight about 30% more than appropriate Rocna.
Wish You good luck with sticking to Delta sizing chart.

Cheers,

Tomasz

Tomasz,

I'm not arguing that there is a discrepancy between what a manufacturer claims and what we, as anchorholics, know. We have a 16kg Delta on our 40ft and Lewmar's table says this is suitable. For the most part it has been superb in my experience and the 2 times it has dragged we were in weed so I am not holding the size of anchor responsible for them, especially as we were hit with nearly 50kts on one occasion. I do feel that 16kg is a little too small for our boat and am planning to upgrade in the next year or 2.

As such I have been researching various anchors and you have to go with the data from the manufacturers when it comes to making your choice. For example, for my 40ft I have the choice of anything from 6.8kg - Fortress, 13kg - Knox, 16kg - Delta, 20kg - Rocna and 30kg from Mantus. Now all these are working anchors for normal conditions but there is a HUGE difference across the range. Obviously if we want to look at storm anchors then we step up a level or even 2.

As an anchorholic I am considering either a 25kg Rocna or a 18kg Knox, with the Knox currently the favoured choice as I won't need to replace my entire anchor windlass to install it, just the chain gypsy for a 10mm chain (plus it is British made ;-) ).

So in conclusion I hope these numbers show just how confusing it is for your average sailor to understand anchor sizes. And why it is disconsiderate to go on about 'pathetically undersized' anchors when an owner has a large anchor than the manufacturer recommends, even if we anchorholics don't agree necessarily.

Keiron

[cwyckham]

Originally Posted by kas_1611

...As an anchorholic I am considering either a 25kg Rocna or a 18kg Knox, with the Knox currently the favoured choice as I won't need to replace my entire anchor windlass to install it, just the chain gypsy for a 10mm chain (plus it is British made ;-) ).

...

What does anchor choice have to do with chain choice? Aren't these independent? And why would an anchor choice require a windlass change? Or is the problem room for the shank?

[DoubleWhisky]

Originally Posted by kas_1611

For example, for my 40ft I have the choice of anything from 6.8kg - Fortress, 13kg - Knox, 16kg - Delta, 20kg - Rocna and 30kg from Mantus. Now all these are working anchors for normal conditions but there is a HUGE difference across the range. Obviously if we want to look at storm anchors then we step up a level or even 2.

As an anchorholic I am considering either a 25kg Rocna or a 18kg Knox, with the Knox currently the favoured choice (plus it is British made ;-) ).

Just for sharing:

In my very own spreadsheet the following anchor sizes are listed as suitable for Bavaria 40, Med cruising area, seasonal cruising:

Boss 27 kg
Excel 30 kg
Knox 27 kg
Mantus 29.5 kg
Rocna 25 kg
Spade 25 kg
Supreme 27 kg
Ultra 27 kg
Bugel 30 kg
Claw 30 kg
Ray 35 kg
Delta 32 kg
DTX 32 kg
Kobra 2 35 kg
CQR 48 kg
Plough 45 kg

Listed above are not desired weights of anchor of given design. but models in production, of the weight closest to the desired weight of anchor of given type.

I'm probably not only anchorholic, but also BIBoholic

[kas_1611]

Originally Posted by cwyckham

What does anchor choice have to do with chain choice? Aren't these independent? And why would an anchor choice require a windlass change? Or is the problem room for the shank?

Would you want to hang a 25kilo anchor on an 8mm chain??

Main thinking for upping the chain size is actually independent of the anchor size. 10mm weighs more than 8mm so therefore increases the catenary effect, which can't be a bad thing.

As for the windlass, I don't need to change the entire windlass but a 25kilo anchor and 50m of 10mm would almost certainly mean my 1000w motor would be underpowered and liable to burn out so might need to swap out to the 1500w version. Not a biggie but don't fancy having to spend an afternoon with my head in the anchor locker if I can avoid it.

Keiron

[SV Lift]

Originally Posted by kas_1611

Would you want to hang a 25kilo anchor on an 8mm chain??

Sure, works great. By using 8mm (HT), I carry any extra 30m versus 10mm and still have the same weight.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by kas_1611

Would you want to hang a 25kilo anchor on an 8mm chain??

If the chain is strong enough for the boat there is no problems using thinner chain with a heavier anchor.

The reason to oversize the anchor is allow for holding in poor ground. The maximum load is dependent on the boat (size windage etc) and wind strength.

If you look say at the Dashews, they have always put the maximum weight into the anchor and tried to minimise the weight in the chain. I think this a good philosophy.

On their current 64 foot power boat they use a 110kg (243 lbs) Rocna and 10mm G7 chain.

[kas_1611]

Thanks for the input on the chain size matter. Currently we have 50m of 8mm DIN766/ISO818-3 G4/BBB chain with our 16kg Delta. This gives us a maximum anchoring depth at 4:1 of 10.5m. This works fine for our anchoring habits at the moment but if I upgrade the anchor to a larger/better one I would like to increase the maximum depth we can anchor in to open up newer locations.

So I was thinking to replace the chain only with 50m of chain plus 50+m of rode spliced to it. As we would be changing the chain it made sense to step up to the next size. Well that was the thinking until I found out I'd have to change the gypsy and possibly the motor. Given this new info maybe we can keep the 8mm if I can figure out how to splice Anchorplait rode to it myself. Or does anyone have an alternate method of attaching chain to chain or chain to rode?

Cheers

Keiron

[DoubleWhisky]

Keiron,

the BBB chain is not equivalent of Grade 40 chain.
It is Grade 30 chain and can be marked as 3B or BBB on the links.
Very similar chain can be marked PC, PC3, G3 or G30

Grade 40 chain can be marked HT, HT4, G4, G40 or G43 (By the way - it is not high tensile chain, the HT here stand for High Test).

They are completely different - different material, different weight per given length, different production process, different tensile strength, different safe working load.

What Bavaria do You have? Older J&J designed version, or newer one, by Farr Design?

Cheers,

Tomasz

[kas_1611]

Thomasz,

We have the newer BMW/Farr designed Bavaria.

The chain description is actually the gypsy description which shows it as G4/BBB so I guess it could be either G4 or BBB. To be honest I haven't looked at the chain itself for what it actually is, job for next week when I head back, but given the pattern of "fit the bare minimum" by manufacturers and dealerships I'd be very surprised if it were G4 HT.

Given this fact I think it wise to just go ahead and get 50m of G4 (8 or 10mm) with the anchorplait line spliced to it to replace the "unknown" grade of chain we currently have.

No wonder your average boater doesn't bother to change their anchoring equipment given the confusion between Real Life conditions, manufacturer claims and what manufacturers fit.

Cheers

Keiron

[DoubleWhisky]

I do not know this Bavaria model first hand, but I suppose its chain locker should contain at least 80 meters of 8 mm chain.
Let me do some calculations and I will be back, may be with some suggestions

Cheers,

Tomasz

[kas_1611]

Thomasz,

Thank you for setting this thread up as a separate one, hopefully it will help other Bavaria Cruiser owners thinking of upgrade their anchoring setup.

Cheers

Keiron

[DoubleWhisky]

Drifting now THIS thread...
Are You happy with this boat?

I sailed some older Bavarias, of J&J design. They were all (all I sailed ) quite well sailing boats, but the built was not so good. Underspecified rigging on some at least, quite poor finish below, flexible laminates in places - such a things. New Bavarias i visited only on boat shows and improvement of finish was obvious to me. I didn't sail any of them, and I found quite different opinions of their sailing qualities, so I'm curious abot some first hand experience

Cheers,

Tomasz

[kas_1611]

Thomasz,

We have been more than happy with our Bavaria. She's a very comfortable boat with lots of storage space, well lit below and a good layout. As we live aboard for much of the year these were as big a consideration as performance, if not slightly more important. The new fold down swim platform does actually give more space below than you'd normally get in a 40 footer plus it's a great way to relax with a glass of wine after anchoring. And it makes getting in and out the tender easier too.

Performance wise she is pretty good for an out and out cruiser. We have had 9kts out of her comfortably and regularly get 7 to 8kts. We have a 114% Genoa/Jib due to the car tracks being inboard of the shrouds but that means we can leave the full foresail out in higher winds without worrying about being over powered as you would do with the older boat's 140% Genoa. The in mast furling main takes a little getting used to but once mastered does not hinder her at all. Yeah I know many people hate them but if we can get hull speed with one then I think the critics need to try it before they denounce it. Reefing is not a problem with lines run back to the cockpit, especially as my wife and I sail just the 2 of us. Reefing a slab reefed main 2 up is something I'd rather avoid, even if people think you lose performance. Set up well the sails work and we have even overtaken a 42ft boat with a traditional main. Only downside of the 114% genny is downwind she can be a little sluggish, especially if dead downwind and running on the genny alone. Cruising chute has been considered.

Build quality is good, haven't had any problems so far. No squeaks, no flexing that we are aware of and nothing has broken (yet!). I think the change over from the older J&J design brought in an improvement in the manufacturing and construction processes within Bavaria.

Possibly the only down point is the anchor locker. This is accessed from inside the fore cabin which does make it a little tricker than the normal deck opening. You do need to make sure your bitter end is long enough to come all the way out on deck otherwise you are scrambling below to access it. Hatch can be a pain to close up again but that is only because the seal is so tight to ensure full water tightness. Again once you get used to it it no longer is a big deal and I think it actually does give us a few extra inches space inside the cabin

When we were looking to buy in 2010 we were impressed with the space available compared to other boats of a similar size and design. Features like the cockpit table, which folds out into a proper, flat dining table (yes you can lay a table cloth on it) and the swim platform did help us makeup our minds and we have not been sorry about our choice. Haven't seen another 40ft cruising boat I'd swap her for yet to be honest.

Cheers

Keiron