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Old 29-12-2013, 22:10   #31
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Re: Mantus chain hook

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Originally Posted by Celestialsailor View Post
I almost never back down on my chain around the gypsy. I always use the snubber to do so. Why stress it?
Simple, you use a chain claw, or chain hook attached to a metre of line (whatever you like) and attach to whatever you have that is the equivalent to a Samson post (centre line cleat?) You then are not backing down on the gypsy.

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Old 30-12-2013, 04:09   #32
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Re: Mantus chain hook

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Originally Posted by JonJo View Post
We would deploy 3:1 and then back down. If an modern anchor does not set at 3:1 then there is an issue (poor holding, something in the anchor toe) we would then deploy whatever scope is needed and then attach the snubber. If you deploy all the chain and back down and something is not quite right, you have it all to take in again.
It is quite rare for a new generation anchor not to set the first time so generally I set with the full amount of chain and normal snubber out. It is a bit of work to wind this in again if the anchor does not set, but this should is rare with a good quality anchor.

There seems little point setting the anchor less well with smaller scope scope and then deploying more rode. Why not set it better with more scope?

The exception is if you are deploying a very large scope in deep water, particularly in weedy or rocky anchorages with all chain. With a very large scope the drag of the rode can diminish the force at the anchor and reduce the depth of set.
In general the sweet spot for setting the anchor optimally is considerably greater than 3:1 so if you intend to deploy more scope my advice would be set the anchor at your full scope (unless it is very large) and the anchor will burry a bit deeper.

If you need to anchor at a very short scope, if possible, it is worth setting the anchor at a longer scope if maximum holding is required. The scope can be shortened after the anchor is set.

As has been said don't apply setting loads to the winch.
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Old 30-12-2013, 04:26   #33
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Re: Mantus chain hook

I must admit that my anchoring experiences are in variable (by variable I mean - I don't know what they are) seabeds, usually with unknown bottoms. Background might suggest sand but having anchored in sand to find its actually sand of 2 inch deep over loose rock - I'm cautious. Also anchoring in sand patches in weed beds means if you miss the sand and hit the weed - then deploying 50m of chain means you need to reel it all in and start again. Experience suggests deploying as little as sensible. Obviously if its all well know and reliably documented then deploying at 5:1 or 7:1 makes sense.

However even when deploying on a known seabed I would still set the anchor on the rode, minus the snubber, its actually quite easy for us to take the load off the windlass. Once its set we then attach the snubber. Backing up on the snubber I personally find it less easy to determine if the anchor is holding - simply because of the elasticity of the snubber. With an inelastic chain its obvious the anchor is well set.

But I agree - modern anchors usually set well and quickly, we are simply not complacent and this is imbued by visiting less frequented places with minimal documentation.

Each to their own.

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Old 30-12-2013, 06:42   #34
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Re: Mantus chain hook

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Originally Posted by JonJo View Post
We would deploy 3:1 and then back down. If an modern anchor does not set at 3:1 then there is an issue (poor holding, something in the anchor toe) we would then deploy whatever scope is needed and then attach the snubber. If you deploy all the chain and back down and something is not quite right, you have it all to take in again.

I will comment that setting on shorter scope and then letting more out is generally not the recommend best practice, for two reasons: (a) you will get false negatives (eg it fails to set at the shorter scope when it might have at the longer scope), and (b) the anchor could be less well/deeply set than it would be if you did it at the longer scope.

Your approach seems tailored to the fact you find picking up chain to be hard work and you want to minimize that. That's fine, it sounds like you have worked out the best compromise for you. But when presenting it as a solution to others they should note/realize it is tailored to your situation.


Backing up on the snubber I personally find it less easy to determine if the anchor is holding - simply because of the elasticity of the snubber. With an inelastic chain its obvious the anchor is well set.

Again, if it works for you, fine. But generally the best practice for checking whether you are really set has nothing to do with the rode at all. It is watching a transit on the beam. If the transit is stopped you are set and if it is moving you are not. I find that it is pretty easy to be fooled by how the chain feels/acts - it can be 'jumpy' and still set if you are on a rock bottom - it can 'come to a sudden halt' but still not be 'set' if for instance it hits a rock but then slowly slides by it.


However even when deploying on a known seabed I would still set the anchor on the rode, minus the snubber, its actually quite easy for us to take the load off the windlass.

Well, I guess that suggests your main snubber is not fast or easy to deploy, and you have an easier/faster method just to take the load off the windless. Again, fine, sounds like a compromise you have worked out for your boat, but not necessary if the snubber is easy to deploy.
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Old 30-12-2013, 07:22   #35
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Re: Mantus chain hook

A bridle on a catamaran is not as easy to deploy as a single line snubber used with mono's. Also, the catamaran bridle tends to be longer than what most mono's use for a snubber (ours is 25' each leg) and thus more springy, which causes "rubber banding" when backing down hard. We too find setting the anchor with it deployed less precise in determining a good set than using just the rode on a hard stop. It could be shortened for setting and then let out after, of course, but that gets to the first point.

Overall, we find it most practical on our catamaran to let out the scope we plan to anchor with, lock the chain load off the windlass using a chain hook connected to a short piece of Amsteel on a central cleat, set the anchor and then deploy the bridle.

Same as JonJo, only we set on longer scope.

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Old 30-12-2013, 08:03   #36
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Re: Mantus chain hook

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonJo View Post
Simple, you use a chain claw, or chain hook attached to a metre of line (whatever you like) and attach to whatever you have that is the equivalent to a Samson post (centre line cleat?) You then are not backing down on the gypsy.

Jonathan
I don't see the need for a chain claw when all I need to do is choke the snubber line to a few feet from the cleat to the chain and set the anchor. Then simply pay the snubber out and not allow it to touch the bottom.
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Old 30-12-2013, 08:33   #37
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Re: Mantus chain hook

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
A bridle on a catamaran is not as easy to deploy as a single line snubber used with mono's.

I have heard that, but I don't understand why? Don't you hook it to the chain and let it out, pretty much the same as on a mono. And if you have to re-anchor you pull it in with the windless and unhook it, pretty much the same as on a mono. If you use a soft shackle, you can roll it in and out over the chain roller, and do all the hooking and unhooking on deck with no leaning or bending or jigging the hook on the chain.

I must be missing something . . . can you explain why it is so much harder on a cat?


Also, the catamaran bridle tends to be longer than what most mono's use for a snubber (ours is 25' each leg) and thus more springy, which causes "rubber banding" when backing down hard.

The length of snubber on mono's varry's greatly. Some use very long ones, and others use short ones. So that is really not a mono vs cat distinction.

However, my point was that in fact using the feel of the rode/chain/snubber is (generally) not the best way to be sure you are set. That is to watch a beam transit. You can , or at least I can and have been, fooled by the 'feel of the set' and I don't pay it any attention at all any more. Perhaps you and Jojo are much more sensitive and accurate at judging feel than I am, that is certainly possible, but a transit is certain - you are either stopped and set or you are not.

Using a short amsteel snubber to set the anchor and then switching to the main snubber after being set seems to me like a bunch of extra work without (generally) producing better results. That's my opinion . . . I appreciate you disagree.


JoJo is taking what are generally considered two 'short cuts', both of which seem at least in part designed to simplify the work if the anchor does not set. If someone has trouble getting the anchor to set, I can see those being a worthwhile compromise. But my anchor sets most of the time, so I don't see much point in taking those short cuts.

There are obviously a lot of different ways to skin this cat.
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Old 30-12-2013, 08:40   #38
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Re: Mantus chain hook

When we anchor I let out a 3-1 scope and do what I call a "soft" set. By soft set I let the boat drift back with the wind and/or tide and feel the hook dig in. There's minimal stress on the windless. Then I let out a 5-1 scope including bridle and have the wife back down HARD to finish setting the hook. If the hook doesn't grab at 3-1 then all I have to do is bring in the short scope and try again. This avoids having to disconnect the bridle and haul in a 5-1 scope and start over again. If the wind and/or tide is really strong during the soft set, the wife will use a little forward throttle to offset so again to minimize strain on the windlass. This has worked good for us so far...Sid
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Old 30-12-2013, 09:20   #39
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Re: Mantus chain hook

Sid, interesting . . . so perhaps this a cat thing . . . I still can't understand why it would be. and would be interested to learn why.

As you say it does seem to be at least in part in case the hook does not grab. So, is it because cats set first time less frequently because they (generally) carry lighter ground tackle? That's the only thing I can think of.
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Old 30-12-2013, 09:24   #40
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Re: Mantus chain hook

I didn't mean to imply that it was onerous - just a bit more cumbersome. Yes, putting the bridle on is fairly easy, but if one's plan was to adjust it while setting anchor, the connection points are 20' apart and require crossing the chain to reach them. When let out as normal, we find them too springy for setting - they do not transfer good continuous force to the anchor and that movement makes visual bearings more difficult.

Funny, setting anchor on the rode only and my foot on the chain, I can tell we are not set before the bearings change enough to be noticeable. I have yet to fail to detect a drag or bad set this way. In fact, I can usually guess the bottom composition pretty accurately, as well as how deeply the anchor set and how far it moved before setting. We don't rely just on my foot, of course. Two of us (me on the bow and Michele at the helm) take visual bearings while backing down. All three indicators (me, her and my foot) must agree to be "anchored".

The chain hook on amsteel chain stop is no problem at all - it is connected to a center cleat that the chain travels right next to. It is only a matter of kicking it off the chain when letting out the bridle. It also serves as the chain stop should there be a bridle failure, as well as the chain stop when the anchor is on the roller, so all that "extra work" has valuable purpose to us.

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Old 30-12-2013, 09:31   #41
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Re: Mantus chain hook

We don't carry lighter ground tackle, and we don't follow the shallow set steps that JonJo and Sid do - and we NEVER let the windlass carry the load during any part of the procedure. We let out our expected final scope for setting. We just do not connect the bridle until after we set.

In fact, the majority of mono's I watch never deploy a snubber until after the anchor is set. I'm not so sure that is a cat/mono thing or even unusual for mono's.

Of course, we are usually anchored in <15' (often 6'), so full scope isn't too difficult to bring back in if needed. Maybe in deeper anchorages - but the same would be true for monos.

Maybe one difference between mono and cat (in general terms only) is that cats use two engines to back down, so produce more setting force. Perhaps they are able to detect marginal setting better because of this? And this leads some to do the intermediate steps as a test?

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Old 30-12-2013, 09:47   #42
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Re: Mantus chain hook

I have never anchored using a 3 to 1. Always seem to have room to anchor at 5 to1 or more depending on the weather forcast.

I do set the anchor with the 25 foot bridal on with no issues, but do see the value in setting with a shorter line on a cleat. If I ever have an issue, I may try it to see how different it sets.

I used to have a problem with the chain hook coming off as I anchor in 6 feet of water a lot and my bridal lays on the bottom and then the chain hook un-hooks.

The Amsteel Soft Shackle chain hook has a positive connection through the chain link and has eliminated the un-hooking issue.
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Old 30-12-2013, 10:18   #43
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I use hardware-store galvanized chain hooks that cost maybe $1.50, and have never had problems with one unhooking. The trick is to drop a fathom of chain on the standing end of the hook. The weight of that loop keeps the chain hooked.
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Old 30-12-2013, 10:47   #44
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Re: Mantus chain hook

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I use hardware-store galvanized chain hooks that cost maybe $1.50, and have never had problems with one unhooking. The trick is to drop a fathom of chain on the standing end of the hook. The weight of that loop keeps the chain hooked.
It's interesting...I have had the same experience but always thought they could become "unhooked" some how. So I went to the Mantus hook and although I'm not sure if it was the way I hooked the Mantus up, I did find it unhooked one time. So it may have been that I didn't make sure it was hooked in correctly, was lying on the bottom because I was in 10 ft. of water with 25 feet of bridle out or that for some other reason, just unhooked.
I know you've been to Mananaland many times, so you most likely know of the La Paz waltz. A good test for ground tackle. I do use a hook as a temporary snubber occasionally while backing down. I'm surprised to find the plastic retainer modification to the Mantus hook. Previous advertising lead me to believe it was near impossible to become "unhooked". Seems like this is not the case. Although their are lot's of past ideas that were supposedly infallible. Perhaps from now on, I will choke the Matus hook just above the water, to keep an eye on it. Maybe I'll ask for the modification to the chain and have one of my freeloading friends bring it down when visiting.
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Old 30-12-2013, 11:11   #45
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Re: Mantus chain hook

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I use hardware-store galvanized chain hooks that cost maybe $1.50, and have never had problems with one unhooking. The trick is to drop a fathom of chain on the standing end of the hook. The weight of that loop keeps the chain hooked.
Believe it or not, that so called "trick" is no guarantee when using the Mantus. It shifts back and forth on the link enough to let the jaw opening line up with the next link and come loose.
A $1.50 part in your ground tackle? Regular chain grab hooks put a side load on the chain. A claw for example has a straight pull but costs more.
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