Mantus Anchor or Rocna ?

[Cotemar]

The changeover to new generation anchors has been gaining speed in the last six years. A good place to see how strong that change is, just to go to eBay and look at all the used anchor listings.

CF has a lot of used anchor listings as well as Craigslist.

I brought my old CQR and Delta to the metal crap yard, so as not to have them drag down on me from a friend’s boat. If I gave them anchors away, it surly would not be to my boating friends. It’s sort of like giving you friends your old 100 watt light bulbs instead of new 1 watt LED bulbs. What kind of friend does that?

My take on old generation anchors, is the sooner they are out of the cruising community the better.

Delta anchors has 1370 listings for sale on ebay

delta anchor | eBay

Bruce anchors has 79 listings for sale on ebay

bruce anchors | eBay

CQR has 23 listings for sale on ebay

cqr anchor | eBay

[motion30]

I think if most people had a chance to use a new generation anchor they would understand

[EighthWonder]

[QUOTE="Cotemar;1417262"]

"My take on old generation anchors, is the sooner they are out of the cruising community the better."


Hear Hear!!

;-D

[JonJo]

Blindly loyal?

Maybe a bit too sweeping

But ask a Spade owner to change to a Rocna, ask someone to change from a Supreme to an Excel - I do not need to wonder about the reaction - you see evidence on every anchor thread.

Yes owners of new gen anchors are happy, or content (though hopefully yhey still aspire to perfection) - willing to change, not that likely.

Jonathan

[DoubleWhisky]

JonJo - I do not believe (ANCHOR IS MATTER OF FAITH) in single anchor being real all-rounder. But I do believe, that it is possible to cover all probable situations and conditions by carefully chosen set of anchors. May be three at all? My personal faith dictates to include biggest practical Fortress into such a set, even if I never used one in anger, only for setting training. Two others should (for me) be interchangeable bowers, covering between them all seabed variants. Oh, no it will be the fourth... Kind of grapnel - for pure rocks. Still idea of two complementary and interchangeable primaries appeal to me...
So You can see, even if I'm believer, I can change my faith quite frequently - along with changing the kind of bottom under my keel

[JonJo]

Originally Posted by DoubleWhisky

JonJo - I do not believe (ANCHOR IS MATTER OF FAITH) in single anchor being real all-rounder. But I do believe, that it is possible to cover all probable situations and conditions by carefully chosen set of anchors. May be three at all? My personal faith dictates to include biggest practical Fortress into such a set, even if I never used one in anger, only for setting training. Two others should (for me) be interchangeable bowers, covering between them all seabed variants. Oh, no it will be the fourth... Kind of grapnel - for pure rocks. Still idea of two complementary and interchangeable primaries appeal to me...
So You can see, even if I'm believer, I can change my faith quite frequently - along with changing the kind of bottom under my keel

I can quite like a man who calls himself double whisky

One aspect we do not go into, in terms of BIB, is convenience. I am on a small yacht, 6t x 38', and its relatively easy for me to change an anchor on the main rode (its a bit fiddly but not physically demanding) and I can deploy an anchor, steel, by hand off one bow or from the dinghy. I cheat by making a lot of use of alloy anchors (same size as the steel but half the weight. I only have one bow roller and one windlass and my second rode is 30m of 8mm chain and 40m of 3 ply nylon (I would change to anchor plait but I have the 3 ply and it works - just messy to store, milk crate).

If I had a bigger yacht, and/or if I had a bigger anchor - recall ours are 15kg steel then changing anchors or deploying a second anchor would be a nightmare (unless it were still alloy). But I'm of the view that if I had a bigger yacht I would sensibly be looking at 2 bow rollers on which I could accomodate 2 similarly sized anchors (both new gen, both of the same size) - say an Excel and Spade (in my imaginary bigger boat) say 40kg and have further backups in the form of Fortress and either alloy Spade or Excel at around the 20kg level. At 20 kg I could still deploy by hand of the bow and or from the dinghy.

Its when you get beyond requiring a 40kg anchor that the real problems arise. Its basically impossible to safely change anchors in anything but ideal conditions. It would be dangerous to deploy off the bow or from a dinghy. Consequently given you have 2 bow rollers I can then see the argument for BIB simply becuase what's on the bow is really all you have (unless you have a crew of gorillas).

But most of 'us' have 40/45 foot yachts, or smaller - we cannot afford anything else. So my ideas are still anchors sized (as per your listing in your original post) to match the yacht but to have at least 3 and these three should be the same size (rated for the same sized yacht) and of different design.

But part of the argument for BIB was 2 sizes bigger, as i thought advocated by Morgan's Cloud and they seem to have mellowed. Consequently the idea of being rated to take a 33kg Rocna now means using a 40kg Rocna not the 55kg Rocna that would have been 2 sizes bigger. And down at smaller anchors a 20kg and 25 kg Rocna are not that much different )though 20kg to 33kg Rocna is still a big jump - but not getting quite the same support from Morgan's Cloud anymore).

But Doublewhiskly

Good original post, your English was fine

Jonathan

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by JonJo

say an Excel and Spade (in my imaginary bigger boat) say 40kg

I assume you want two different types of anchors for different substrates.

Personally given the choice between a steel Spade and steel Excel (I have not seen the alloy Excel, so it may be better in holding than the alloy Spade) I would always use the Spade. If you are selecting these anchors on the type of substrate (presuming you know what the bottom composition is) which anchor would you use with what substrate?

[EighthWonder]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

I assume you want two different types of anchors for different substrates.

Personally given the choice between a steel Spade and steel Excel (I have not seen the alloy Excel, so it may be better in holding than the alloy Spade) I would always use the Spade. If you are selecting these anchors on the type of substrate (presuming you know what the bottom composition is) which anchor would you use with what substrate?

Anyone notice this is a "Mantua or Rocna" thread? Just curious. LOL
;-)

[downunder]

Originally Posted by EighthWonder

Anyone notice this is a "Mantua or Rocna" thread? Just curious. LOL
;-)

Probably comes up because the threads when on the other non advertising anchors were closed down when discussion with a couple of mods got a bit heated in the past.

[JonJo]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

I assume you want two different types of anchors for different substrates.

Personally given the choice between a steel Spade and steel Excel (I have not seen the alloy Excel, so it may be better in holding than the alloy Spade) I would always use the Spade. If you are selecting these anchors on the type of substrate (presuming you know what the bottom composition is) which anchor would you use with what substrate?

As you have never used the steel Excel, nor seen one in use, I'm not sure how you can say that - perhaps you can elucidate. You are fairly emphatic - I'd love, as I am sure would others, to see the reasoning.


But to answer you other question.

If you have one bow roller spare anchors are real nuisance (until you need them). Many will not appreciate they are a nuisance - because some do not carry them (or not spares that they profess to be reliable - which begs the question why carry an unreliable spare, at all?) The Spade has the advantage that it is demountable (and dependable). I can pack the fluke into a milk crate, one of six in my bow locker (one of the others holds the complete spare rode, the balance mooring lines and a 50m warp). The shank slides neatly down beside the assembled Fortress which we can deploy off the bow in a few seconds. The Spade is easy to assemble, one bolt, nylok nut (real belt and braces) a split pin. When assembled, as Morgan's Cloud states, the joint is a non event, its as secure as welded anchor (though not quite as neat nor fool proof as the alloy Excel).

And to get back on track - why the demountable Spade and not a Mantus and/or why the Excel and not the Rocna - no-one wants me to go there

Jonathan

[cfarrar]

Spade or Excel? Unless you're down under, it's a moot point, isn't it?

[JonJo]

Originally Posted by cfarrar

Spade or Excel? Unless you're down under, it's a moot point, isn't it?

I have asked Anchor Right of their international sales.

They have shipped individual pallet loads to both Europe and America - usually by a consortium of like minded cruisers who have decided that the AR product merits their attention. AR also sell on a regular, but low numbers, individual anchors into both America and Europe. In the same way that Spade sell into Australia (and I assume other markets where they are not represented).


One has to ask - why would someone who has never used one, possibly never seen one used, go out of his way to suggests its not good enough? On what basis are these comments made and why?

Noelex portrays himself as someone with expertise, continually describes how he anchors every day, recounts tales of diving on anchors and watching anchors being used - and then destroys, totally in my view, his own credibility by making unsubstantiated and repeated negative comments on a product he has never seen in use.

Its a moot point maybe - but why, why the negativity. Evan in a previous post gave AR the benefit of the doubt - what is Noelex' agenda?

Jonathan

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by JonJo

As you have never used the steel Excel, nor seen one in use, I'm not sure how you can say that - perhaps you can elucidate. You are fairly emphatic - I'd love, as I am sure would others, to see the reasoning.

I know you have used both the steel and now alloy Excel when they were in the prototype stage.

You have therefore used these anchors longer than anyone, but this should not exclude other members from voicing opinions.

I have lived and sailed in Australia only a few miles from the home of Anchor Right, where these anchors are reasonably popular, so I have seen the steel Excel anchor in use. I have never owned one.

Originally Posted by JonJo

But to answer you other question.

I Know both the steel and alloy Spade has a removal shank whereas only the alloy Excel has this feature, but that does not help decide which anchor to deploy. If I understand correctly you are advocating the advantage of having both of these styles of anchor available, which means selecting between these two. How do you select (if deploying one anchor) which anchor to use?

Originally Posted by JonJo

And to get back on track - why the demountable Spade and not a Mantus and/or why the Excel and not the Rocna - no-one wants me to go there

I understand your bow roller will not fit a roll bar anchor, but fire away with your opinion of different anchors. Personaly I always find these sort of reports interesting. Voicing the opinion of members is what this forum lthis is for.

[DoubleWhisky]

Hi, JonJo

Anyway - can You be so kind and comment about substrates on which both anchors are of the best use, up to Your opinion?
Each anchor ist better on some kind of substrate and not so good on other.
I know a thing or two in this regard about Rocna, can assume that Mantus is somewhat similar (because of similiarities in design), can even assume that Mantus CAN have an edge over Rocna in weeds because of larger diameter ring, not so easy to be blocked, but I know nothing regarding suitability of Excel on different seabeds. I think most of us Northern Hemisphere members are in the same situation, as Excel is something difficult to see it in action here.
For the moment - for what I know - given the choice between Rocna, Mantus, Spade and Cobra - I would place Excel on the last position just because other anchors are known or easy to familiarise to me. On the other hand I know only three things regarding Excel:

• it is the anchor JonJo is (probably) fond of
• it held well one boat one time on difficult seabed (saw the video)
• it is of convex design (and convex anchors are not highly regarded by high percentage of sailors here).

I do not want to discredit Excel in any way. I'm just interested and trying to learn more about

[JonJo]

There might be some confusion:

I think the video to which you refer is of a SARCA, (might have bee the forerunner of what is now called called a Super SARCA) - as the focus of the video. If its the tsunami video to which you refer.

The Excel is completely different.

The Super SARCA is a slightly convex fluke, unweighted, perforated, roll bar design with a slot in the shank.

The Excel is a slightly convex, weighted in the turned down tow, highly sharpened high tensile steel sole plate and toe, with (again) a perforated fluke but high tensile steel shank. The Excel has no slot in the shank, nor roll bar.

Both anchors are rated as SHHP under Australian rules and both (in order to achieve SHHP) have been proof tested in accordance with procedures established by Classification Societies.

I am not a fan of slotted anchors, except in specific applications - for example anchoring near coral or where ground chains might be common. (But my views are not those of people who use slotted anchors with out problem - and many have used such anchors for decades). Consequently a Super SARCA would have good application in stern to mooring in Med harbours with [possibility of ground chain - but personally I think there are better options, for choice of anchor, outside these specific and narrow application. But if I were anchoring regularly in the Med 'stern to' or anchoring in areas of coral then a Super SARCA would be in my option list.

Roll bar concave anchors have a reputation for picking up and carrying weed and mud (which is the reason the Mantus has a wide roll bar, to minimise clogging - and note it enjoyed the design input from a NASA engineer). This phenomena, clogging, has been widely reported - but is usually described by owners as an attribute (which seems to contradict the Mantus design philosophy - but where would we be without contradiction on an anchor thread?)

I am fond of a number of anchors, Fortress, Spade, Ultra, Excel. But an Ultra is, sadly, very expensive; Fortress simply does not fit on our bow roller and can only be deployed, in our case, 'by hand' and the demountable nature of the Spade makes it obviously an anchor that 'packs' and performs this role beautifully. I would never recommend an Australian to buy a Spade - its simply costs too much to ship here individually but I would encourage any Australian to buy a Fortress (they are freely available - I use the word freely very lightly!). Anchor choice is not one simply of how it works - this might be paramount - its also about how much it costs, whether it fits on your bow roller (or in your locker) and simply - can you get one easily.

But to return to my previous post:

The repeated and public criticism of a product (or products) about which an individual knows virtually nothing would be considered malicious and without foundation. It might be suggested that considering the repetitive nature of the comments that the individual had motives and an agenda that were not obvious. There might even be a word to describe such actions - but the word eludes me.

I have no issue with anyone who expresses an opinion but when that unsubstantiated opinion is repeated, constantly, and that opinion might appear malicious I have a very simple question - why?

Jonathan