Mantus Anchor or Rocna ?

[SailFastTri]

Cwyckam's is right on about the role of a Fortress, and that's why I carry one. His story is similar to a situation on a boat I rescued from my dinghy with help from others:

1) Wind went light and variable.
2) Boat drifted over the anchor
3) wind came up in opposite direction while owners were away.
4) boat went for a sail while nobody was aboard.
5) Fortress anchor was brought up with a shell caught between fluke and stock, it must have flipped and dragged with flukes stuck up in the air.
6) Good Samaritans (including me) re-anchored the boat.

I believe Fortress anchors will stay set in a veering wind so long as there is steady pull. When the wind dies completely then comes up in another direction all bets are off.

Other than that, no other anchor can beat a well-set Fortress, pound for pound.

[JonJo]

I was testing a roll bar anchor, full size (or 15kg), and could not work out why it would not set (modern roll bar anchors set suddenly). I was setting by hand but with a full chain rode. I pulled the anchor up.

Obviously I had dropped the anchor gently with the yacht not moving. The anchor had landed vertically on the seabed and sat vertically on fluke and roll bar. As I deployed, dropped, the chain it had wrapped itself round the shank and loop fallen to the fluke/shank interface.

In light winds and a lightly set anchor or in a veering wind and an anchor set in a very hard seabed such that it has not dived then any rode has the opportunity to catch itself round the shank. Certainly if you had an overly large anchor that would only bury itself with the aid of strong wind then there is always the opportunity that the shank will stand proud (or not be sufficiently buried) that with light winds the rode could run under the shank. Possibly because people buy larger Fortress, compared to the anchor they have on their bow roller, it is possible the anchor is too big to set deeply unless the winds are exceptionally strong - the shank is thus vulnerable - this is not the fault of the anchor.

I have a friend who runs Naval landing craft from Brisbane to the Gulf of Carpenteria. They had a 70kg Bruce on the bow - which they could not get to set. On lifting it had a fluke sized chunk of dead coral embedded between fluke and shank - it took them a long time to break it free (fortunately for my friend he was I/C and he naval ratings to do the hard work.

I think we have had comments passed on some anchors blocking and choking - anchors that become 'ineffective' is not restricted to Danforth or Fortress types - and to suggest only these fluke anchors has an achilles heal (missing from other designs) - is plain incorrect.

Anchors are a compromise - find me a man with a perfect anchor etc etc.

Negative comment about design needs to be put in proportion and in context - there are weaknesses to a Fortress, there are weaknesses in a Rocna or Spade, denial is not healthy

Jonathan

[cwyckham]

Originally Posted by JonJo

I was testing a roll bar anchor, full size (or 15kg), and could not work out why it would not set (modern roll bar anchors set suddenly). I was setting by hand but with a full chain rode. I pulled the anchor up.

Obviously I had dropped the anchor gently with the yacht not moving. The anchor had landed vertically on the seabed and sat vertically on fluke and roll bar. As I deployed, dropped, the chain it had wrapped itself round the shank and loop fallen to the fluke/shank interface.

In light winds and a lightly set anchor or in a veering wind and an anchor set in a very hard seabed such that it has not dived then any rode has the opportunity to catch itself round the shank. Certainly if you had an overly large anchor that would only bury itself with the aid of strong wind then there is always the opportunity that the shank will stand proud (or not be sufficiently buried) that with light winds the rode could run under the shank. Possibly because people buy larger Fortress, compared to the anchor they have on their bow roller, it is possible the anchor is too big to set deeply unless the winds are exceptionally strong - the shank is thus vulnerable - this is not the fault of the anchor.

I have a friend who runs Naval landing craft from Brisbane to the Gulf of Carpenteria. They had a 70kg Bruce on the bow - which they could not get to set. On lifting it had a fluke sized chunk of dead coral embedded between fluke and shank - it took them a long time to break it free (fortunately for my friend he was I/C and he naval ratings to do the hard work.

I think we have had comments passed on some anchors blocking and choking - anchors that become 'ineffective' is not restricted to Danforth or Fortress types - and to suggest only these fluke anchors has an achilles heal (missing from other designs) - is plain incorrect.

Anchors are a compromise - find me a man with a perfect anchor etc etc.

Negative comment about design needs to be put in proportion and in context - there are weaknesses to a Fortress, there are weaknesses in a Rocna or Spade, denial is not healthy

Jonathan

Your tone is coming across a tad inflammatory. I am not in denial at all. I understand the strengths and weaknesses of my Fortress. It is the greatest anchor no the market for some things, it just isn't a satisfactory main anchor. It's failure mode is too catastrophic. This is a well understood issue that is agreed upon by most if not all cruisers.

There are two failure modes. One is a wrap around the hinge bar (I think that's the stock, not shaft. Different parts entirely), the other is that something jams the flukes so they cant hinge when it gets overturned in a veer.

You've heard two first hand examples in the very small sample size of people reading this thread in the last few hours. This is a real issue. Other anchors can have difficulty setting, but once they're set, they're generally pretty good. A drag on a veer can happen, but it's often a slow drag.

Your example of a roll bar sitting vertically on the bottom with a pile of chain wrapped around the shank simply illustrates why one should have some way on astern while letting out the anchor and why one should set the anchor. Too many people dump chain in a pile on top of the anchor and hope for the best. That's not a failing of any anchor type, that's a methodology problem.

I've never heard of an anchor dragging because the rode got under the shank on a veer. I don't see how that would happen or how it would cause a drag if it did. Maybe with multiple wraps from a constantly changing tide, I suppose.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by cwyckham

This is a well understood issue that is agreed upon by most if not all cruisers.

+1
The Fortress is a great anchor with fantastic holding and light weight, but its occasional failure to hold with a change in direction of pull is widely reported. I do not agree with dismissing such reports as apocryphal.

I have a Fortress and would encourage every cruising boat to get one, but use it in situations where its (considerable) strengths are most valuable.

[JonJo]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

+1
The Fortress is a great anchor with fantastic holding and light weight, but its occasional failure to hold with a change in direction of pull is widely reported. I do not agree with dismissing such reports as apocryphal.

I have a Fortress and would encourage every cruising boat to get one, but use it in situations where its (considerable) strengths are most valuable.

As Noelex will attest a highly respected yachting journalist set his roll bar anchor firmly - it held for 12 hours and then broke free and dragged - it had a ball of fishing net wedges in it.

Accidents happen to all anchors - its not inflammatory, its real life.

If you sell anchors for 25 years you are obviously a success but you will enjoy some bad press. If you have sold for 5 years you might be successful, time will tell - but you will have less bad reports because you have sold less anchors.

It all needs to be put in proportion.

Jonathan

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by JonJo

As Noelex will attest a highly respected yachting journalist set his roll bar anchor firmly - it held for 12 hours and then broke free and dragged - it had a ball of fishing net wedges in it.

You are referring to Viv cox. I don't understand how this story of a Rocna dragging (perhaps due to debris) relates to the resetting ability of the Fortress, but I think Viv shares the use of some caution when using the Fortress where there is possibility of change in the direction of pull:

"I like my Fortress very much and use it constantly - but as a kedge, not a bower"

"Having twice dragged on a Fortress that failed to reset when the wind or tide turned"

The post can be found here:


Have you ever had a Danforth type anchor break out..? [Archive] - Yachting and Boating World Forums

Fortress are a success, and very deservedly so, their anchors have some unique and wonderful properties, but when using them it is important to recognise their strengths and weaknesses.

[JonJo]

Unless you know how an anchor has been set - how much scope, what seabed, how well it was dug in on setting, what wind conditions were after it set, whether the anchors was clean to start with

then

Virtually any comment on an anchor's performance is suspect - or apocryphal.

We all emphasise how an anchor should be well set, reverse engines maybe 50% or 75% revs - how many people (watching their neighbours) actually see this happen?

We all know the advantages of decent snubbers - how many watch their neighbours and see snubbers being used?

How many watch neighbours with fear and trepidation as they, the neighbours, settle in for the night on a 3:1 scope.

We all know that a swivel should be separated from the shank by a couple of links of chain - how many swivels do you see directly connected to the shank.

If you talk to 'cruisers' and ask them about scope - how many quote a scope ratio based on depth of water and how many on depth + freeboard. So do you know what scopes was used when you quote a tale of disaster.

I have pictures of yachts in marinas with mud in the fluke, set like concrete, do you actually think this mud is carefully cleaned out before that yacht goes out again? Yes, some maybe, but??

Noelex is aware - I can quote 2 yachts using the same style 'new gen' anchor, next door to each other (ostensibly the same seabed, the correct scope the same technique), one set it easily the other really struggled - why? - no idea, or not that would find much acceptance here.

Inadequately set a Fortress, such that it is not buried - possibly easy to get the chain round the stock or shank.

Think of the number of people who condemn an anchor design on the basis of an image.

Apocryphal, of doubtful authenticity, seems a good word.

I would never have thought you could drop an anchor and it would sit vertically on its roll bar and fluke. It must be impossible! Given the impossibility I would never have thought it possible to wrap the chain round the shank, doubly impossible - but I have the image.

I hesitate to post images - its unfair to quote the doubly impossible as someone will undoubtedly quote it as being gospel, they will misquote the conditions etc. (For example I have seen a well used image of a bent and corroded roll bar anchor - to discover its the only one ever seen (by a supposed expert) in 8 years - but it pops up again and again as if it happens every day.)

Accidents happen - impossible though they seem.

If an anchor 'fails' its too easy to blame the anchor and never consider that just possibly the owner was at fault and that the conditions under which the anchor was used are at best ambiguous.

And finally its yacht - bad things happen. You cannot anticipate catching a discarded fishing net, a ground chain, a lump of coral or the only bit of hard seabed in an anchorage - but that's part of cruising.

Jonathan

[EighthWonder]

Originally Posted by JonJo

Unless you know how an anchor has been set - how much scope, what seabed, how well it was dug in on setting, what wind conditions were after it set, whether the anchors was clean to start with

then

Virtually any comment on an anchor's performance is suspect - or apocryphal.


Jonathan

There's always going to be the exception of old school sailors/boaters who would never want to admit that a next generation anchor is better then the one they've used their whole life. Those stubborn defender's would never tell you all the scary moments of their anchors breaking loose or dragging, just that they've used it their whole life.

Next Generation Anchors should (and I quote):

"Effective anchor designs must at minimum meet the following list of requirements:

The anchor always positions itself correctly – if it falls upside down, it automatically turns over under natural conditions
It turns (veers) with the wind and tide without pulling free
It offers high relative holding power and will not roll out even if dragged
It will hold on the widest possible range of seabeds, handling the typical mud and sand bottoms well in addition to the extremes of very soft mud, very hard sand, grass and weed, kelp, and so on."

If you don't have an anchor designed to meet those requirements it's old school. Simple. I welcome change - the kind of change that keeps me off the rocks. The odds are much higher with a next generation anchor that you'll be safer and that's what it's all about. It will never be 100% but it will be better!
People didn't want to put seat belts on when they were first introduced to the automobile. Why? "Cuz I've been driving my whole life without using one, why wear one now?!" That's why you would always see kids sleeping in the back window of the Chevy while parents barrelled down I-75 heading to Florida. Yep...Real safe.
The same reasoning was true with airbags an so on.
Old school thinking when it comes to safety is archaic and unsafe. This applies to anchors as well.
All the comments in the world can be made defending old school anchors, but at the end of the day they just don't stack up in comparison.
My Rocna is sitting on my dining room floor waiting for Spring to arrive.
I'm even sleeping better in my bed in the house knowing that it's sitting there!
;-P

[Cotemar]

EighthWonder,

You should have been a Poet. Just perfect.
You know, even I am sleeping better knowing you have a new next generation anchor. Sleep tight.

[Fortress]

A few comments on the posts concerning the topic and our product:

Jonathan's statement that "every anchor is a compromise" is well taken and acknowledged, as we certainly know full well that after 25 years and somewhere around 500k anchors sold worldwide, our anchor is not going to work perfectly in every given circumstance. Difficult bottom conditions like grass, weeds or rocks and operator error (ex: using too short a scope) all insure that perfection is not possible.


That said, it is our firm contention that a properly set & sized Fortress anchor, with its two massive precision-machined and sharpened flukes, is not more likely to break free from a sea bottom during a wind or tidal shift than other anchor types, particularly those with far less surface / resistance area.

This contention is based upon the opinion of a 40+ year US Navy soil mechanics and anchor design expert, the 25 years of testimonials we have heard from Fortress owners all over the world, particularly from those in our hurricane region here in south Florida, as well as from independent test results.

One such independent test was conducted by Practical Sailor, in which they noted during their reset tests: "In the best test group, those that did not break out and moved very little (from not measurable to no more than 6"), were the Bruce, the Fortress FX-16, the Supermax (with the adjustable shank) and the Spade.

Additionally: "The best lightweight anchor was the Fortress, which simply swiveled in a horizontal plane around the shank and took up its new alignment."


Another independent test was conducted by the Sailing Foundation, in which they performed straight, then 90°, and finally 180° pulls on the anchors tested. A 24 lb Fortress model FX-37 held to the maximum of 4,000+ lbs in the three pull directions, and no other much heavier steel anchor (ex: Bruce, CQR, Davis, Delta, Luke, Max) was close.

All of that noted, we will readily acknowledge that sailboats oftentimes do not have the engine power to back down hard enough on the more massive Fortress anchor to bury it deeply, and therein lies a key issue in how it performs (or not) during off-center loads.

Here's an interesting comment from the Sailing Foundation test which illustrates this point:

"The Fortress set so deep that the rode had to be hauled in to 1:1 and significant power applied to rode by the 83,000-pound tug to break it free. It is doubtful that a sailboat would have windlass power to break it out. Perhaps large primary winches or a rising tide might be adequate. However, it is also doubtful that a sailboat could have set the anchor that deep in less than a full hurricane."


Our late company founder/owner, who was a lifelong and very adventurous boater with a 1,000 mile trip up the Amazon River, several Atlantic crossings, and a circumnavigation on his resume, said that "once an anchor breaks free from a sea bottom, it is oftentimes no longer an anchor....it is a massive ball with no remaining sharp edges in which to re-penetrate the sea bottom".....and in this circumstance, re-setting is not possible.

This is one of the reasons why we note in our "Safe Anchoring Guide" literature that if you are expecting a wind or tidal shift, its a good idea to set two anchors for maximum safety.

Otherwise, a large heavy plow type might serve your sailboat better.

Safe boating,
Brian

[EighthWonder]

Originally Posted by Fortress

A few comments on the posts concerning the topic and our product:

A 24 lb Fortress model FX-37 held to the maximum of 4,000+ lbs in the three pull directions, and no other much heavier steel anchor (ex: Bruce, CQR, Davis, Delta, Luke, Max) was close.


Safe boating,
Brian

I have a hard time understanding why old style anchors are even tested against new generation anchors anymore.

There should be more testing of new generation pitted against new generation.

It's not even surprising that old styles don't even come close anymore, and comparing a new generation to old is like comparing a 4x4 Diesel Ford Crew Cab with dulalies to a Prius for power.

[ternmarine]

Originally Posted by EighthWonder

I have a hard time understanding why old style anchors are even tested against new generation anchors anymore.

There should be more testing of new generation pitted against new generation.

It's not even surprising that old styles don't even come close anymore, and comparing a new generation to old is like comparing a 4x4 Diesel Ford Crew Cab with dulalies to a Prius for power.

The answer is simple: Advertising and Marketing.

Why test a New Generation against an old style anchor = because you know your new gen anchor will look better in the results.

Why not just test New against New? = because the difference in performance is very very small.

The choice of New Gen anchor is dependant on the ability of each of the designs being marketed better than the other. The rest is personal choice of the buyer.

We are always asked "How does your anchor compare in performance to the other 2 main players ( Rocna and Manson Supreme)? and our answer is simple = It sets as quickly , if not quicker, it holds as well and more importantly, it does not have a roll bar so chances are it will fit your bow a lot easier.

Evolution of design will always happen, and should because there is always room for better and better anchors.

When comparing apples with apples , everyone has a different taste, some sweet , some bitter. It comes down to personal choice.

[EighthWonder]

Originally Posted by ternmarine

The answer is simple: Advertising and Marketing.


When comparing apples with apples , everyone has a different taste, some sweet , some bitter. It comes down to personal choice.

Thanks..
That's what I thought.
;-D

[JonJo]

There is a bit more to it than advertising and marketing.

Most people who own a new gen anchor are converts - and most of them become blindly loyal to the design they have on their bow roller. Personally I think this loyalty is misplaced as if you have the nouse to have changed to a new gen you similarly know no anchor is perfect and carrying an armoury of new gen styles has logic. The idea of the back up anchor being an old gen style looks exceptionally contradcitory.

The market for both the publication industry (when they publish an article on anchors) and the anchor makers are the tens of thousands of people with old gen anchors on their bow rollers - and the best way to illustrate the advantages of a new gen anchor is to compare it to an old gen anchor. The number of people (or yachts) with new gen anchors is tiny (in the grand scheme of things), the owners of these anchors are in the know and its a bit of a waste of time trying to suggest that an owner of a Rocna should replace it with a Spade (or whatever).

The market for new gen anchors is the Delta or CQR owner - and the best way to show them up is to compare old with new.

In the fullness of time those performance differences between the new gen anchors will be defined - but it will engender a furore of replies, its that old blind loyalty issue. In the meantime the focus has been on ensuring the anchors are made properly in the first place.

It also merits mention that Evan went from new gen back to Bruce - the movement is not entirely one way - and the reasoning should not be overlooked

Jonathan

[EighthWonder]

Jonathan[/QUOTE]

"Most people who own a new gen anchor are converts - and most of them become blindly loyal to the design they have on their bow roller.

The number of people (or yachts) with new gen anchors is tiny (in the grand scheme of things)"

Jonathan[/QUOTE]

Should next generation owners really be coined as blind loyalists? Or should it just be noted that they've become happily content with something much better and safer than what was available prior to next generation anchors? Why would they ever go back to owning the Hyundai Pony of anchors, so-to-speak, after owning a Mercedes?

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but in the short period of time that new generation anchors have actually been made available around the world, does it not make sense that literally centuries of old school anchors would still dominate the numbers before they hit the recycle depots?

Change over takes time...but it is changing.