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Old 29-12-2012, 12:52   #91
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Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

These anchor videos shot on a beach are always so lame. To show how these anchors perform in real life situations, you'd need to drop them in 20ft of water with 40 or more feet of chain, then have a diver down there filming what happens. To date, I have never needed to set my anchor up on the beach or in water 6 inches deep... by then, it would obviously be too late.

Why do these anchor discussion threads always turn into one if not more manufacturers advertising their products for free then arguing about who's is the best? I've included the ultra anchor video just to demonstrate a more real life use of an anchor, and how manufacturers videos should be shot. I'm in no way promoting their product.

What means more to me in my cruising life, is what the actual globetrotters use. I just watched a video about a fellow who's cruised around the world twice and covered over 250,000 nm... he had a CQR on his bowsprint.
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Old 29-12-2012, 13:40   #92
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Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

Quote:
What means more to me in my cruising life, is what the actual globetrotters use. I just watched a video about a fellow who's cruised around the world twice and covered over 250,000 nm... he had a CQR on his bowsprint.
Just being the devil's advocate here a bit I think a circumnavigator's advice might be worth listening to with regards to things like watch keeping or offshore storm preparation, but I suspect the average couple snowbirding up and down the coast do more anchoring in a season as they are probably anchoring every night in varying conditions. On the other hand, I believe the CQR is the most popular cruising anchor still, but it has been fading. I did a survey at the mouth of the Panama Canal back in 2006 and it was CQR by a long shot, then Bruce or Bruce knock off, and then after that only a smattering of other types. Today you would find a lot more new type anchors. When that circumnavigator took off there probably weren't many new type anchors around and he went with what he knew and was readily available.
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Old 29-12-2012, 13:52   #93
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Just cause it is fun here is my experience. Bruce held well most everywhere east coast US. Cqr did quite well in most of New England but not so good on the chesapeake. Danforth /fx does real well on most of the chesapeake. Manson supreme held well everywhere chesapeake bay north. One time the Bruce did a skid over what felt like hard pan. I could feel it skidding along had to find a different spot.
Funny video. Obviously has not to do with reality less we would all be washed up. The anchor looks like other new gen hooks. Looks like the roll bar is removable which is intersting.
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Old 29-12-2012, 17:06   #94
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Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

Anchor testing,

Undoubtedly the only way to test anchors is from a real yacht, in a real anchorage with a diver (presumably we need 2) if we are going to do this at any depth. We need a decent camera, stills and video. We need people on the yacht, to change the anchors, drive the yacht. The yacht needs to be 'typical' but needs to be sufficiently powerful (so big engine) to load the anchors to near the ultimate load likely, for the chosen size of anchors). A typical yacht with a big engine looks to be a bit of a contradiction but, anyway. We need a load cell, we need a collection of representative anchors. Ideally we buy these or we end up with the specially tuned and balanced ones. We need to test the anchors at least 3 times in each seabed and we need to test in 3(?) seabeds. We need to define the seabeds in such a way the definition is useful to people using the same anchors on the other side of the world. Many anchorages do not have clear water, what to do? On our chosen day when we get the team together, it has rained, the water is murky - we need send everyone home etc

If the, or an, anchor maker pays - the results are a set up. Hands up any magazine flush with money willing to pay for this. Hands up any National Safety Authority flush with money and who cares.

Sadly real testing costs money.

Knock me off my pedestal but I think, other than the Mantus and Boss, most modern anchors, Supreme, Excel, Fortress, Spade, SARCA, Rocna (sorry if I've missed one) have sufficient straight line holding power - and I suspect the Mantus and Boss will not disappoint. If you are not happy with your choice from this list you can follow the 'big is better' camp - or maybe you made the wrong choice. However its the differences that are now becoming important (or that is being questioned - like this thread, 'Supreme in weed'). So we need more testing, but not holding capacity. We need something slightly more sophisticated, but equally expensive. Mantus and Boss have some catching up to do, they both need that independent test - but once they pass into the winners enclosure (with Excel, Rocna et al), they need to show that they have some advantage, over all the rest (otherwise no-one will buy the unknown and people will buy what their neighbour has) - but its the differences we need to define, not the similarities.

Now knock me off my pedestal
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Old 29-12-2012, 19:56   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kettlewell View Post
I wrote this on another forum too. I still think it somewhat humorous, in a black sort of way, that people feel it is necessary to utilize a new generation anchor that is not just one size bigger, but in some cases up to twice or more the weight recommended in order to get adequate holding power. When back in the day that same boat would probably have been anchoring with something like a 35 lb. Danforth on mostly rope rode with six feet of chain, with another Danforth put out if a major wind shift was expected. Of course this was prior to widespread use of electric or even manual windlasses, and everything needed to be pulled in by hand so weight was more important. This is progress in anchor design?
I could be that leisure boating went through a phase of believing the manufacturers hype that a teensy weeny little anchor was adequate and over the years found it not to be so. Or could be that boats went through a period of becoming lighter displacement with a reduced need for anchor mass and now an increasing trend to bigger boats as the population ages and needs a bit more comfort and consequent increase in anchor size. I still refer back to Nicholson's "Boat Data Book" - as attached
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Old 29-12-2012, 19:58   #96
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Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

One thing that we are leaving out here with the New generation anchors is that you can even stow a few of them if need be.
Mantus unbolts and can be stowed in a bag. And if the rollbar gets in the way of the bow roller, just do no install it. Win Win
Spade unbolts and can be stowed in a bag.

This ability to stow is the reason why the Danforth (Fortress) anchors are so popular.
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Old 29-12-2012, 20:35   #97
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Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cotemar View Post
One thing that we are leaving out here with the New generation anchors is that you can even stow a few of them if need be.
Mantus unbolts and can be stowed in a bag.
Spade unbolts and can be stowed in a bag.

This ability to stow is the reason why the Danforth (Fortress) anchors are so popular.

Let's not forget Fortress. I'm surprised you omitted Rocna, they had a demountable, I think I saw one at a boat show - they then disappeared (the demoutable version I mean).

Another advantage with the stowable designs is that if the shank does bend its much cheaper to replace the shank than the whole thing and sending shanks round the world is easier and cheaper than a complete anchor.
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Old 29-12-2012, 21:06   #98
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Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

Re the Practical Sailor tests, and IIRC, Beth and Evan settled on a 135# Rocna.
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Old 29-12-2012, 21:21   #99
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Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

Since we are covering a lot of anchoring information here.

Lets talk about how everyone connects there Anchor to the chain.

I see a lot of cruisers using those Crosby G-209 Screw Pin Anchor Shackles.

For just a few extra dollars they can double the Working Load Limit (WLL) by using a Crosby G-209A Screw Pin Anchor Shackle

They look identical except for the red pin, but all Crosby shackles are clearly marked with the size and Working Load Limit (WLL) on them
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Old 30-12-2012, 17:58   #100
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Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

I was looking for something else but came across this piece of script provided by a UK chandler for Kobra (Plastimo) anchors. It seems to refer to a stainless anchor - but I assume that the same size (or weight) recommendation would apply to the galvanised version. I'm in no way condoning the recommendation (in fact I disagree, for a variety of reasons) - but if a someone unfortunate enough not to frequent this (and similar) forum were to be looking for advice - maybe the chandler would be the first port of call?

Quote:

The Kobra anchor bites into the seabed within seconds and has a very high holding power, thanks to its weighted tip and very broad shoulders..
Made from high resistance stainless steel : 55 kg/mm 2 .
The outstanding performance of the Kobra results from its particular geometric proportions, which allow you to select safely up to 2 sizes down compared to the usually recommended anchor weight.

Unquote

I do wonder, having made this recommendation (and is it the recommendation of chandler or Plastimo? - do not know), where responsibility lies when the vessel ends up on shore (or has disappeared over the horizon).
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Old 30-12-2012, 18:30   #101
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Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonJo View Post
I was looking for something else but came across this piece of script provided by a UK chandler for Kobra (Plastimo) anchors. It seems to refer to a stainless anchor - but I assume that the same size (or weight) recommendation would apply to the galvanised version. I'm in no way condoning the recommendation (in fact I disagree, for a variety of reasons) - but if someone unfortunate enough not to frequent this (and similar) forum were to be looking for advice - maybe the chandler would be the first port of call?

Quote:

The Kobra anchor bites into the seabed within seconds and has a very high holding power, thanks to its weighted tip and very broad shoulders..
Made from high resistance stainless steel : 55 kg/mm 2 .
The outstanding performance of the Kobra results from its particular geometric proportions, which allow you to select safely up to 2 sizes down compared to the usually recommended anchor weight.

Unquote

I do wonder, having made this recommendation (and is it the recommendation of chandler or Plastimo? - do not know), where responsibility lies when the vessel ends up on shore (or has disappeared over the horizon).
Just another plow knock off (Convex design)
Some what, but not really stowable.

When I had my real CQR with the hinge. The more I used it the more I hated the hinge.
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Old 30-12-2012, 18:38   #102
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Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

The Kobra 2 anchor did very well in some European tests.
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Old 30-12-2012, 19:27   #103
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Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

No real difference between Plastimo Kobra and the Lewmar Delta.
Old (Convex design)

The Newer (Concave designs) have much better holding

As you can see from the latest anchor poll.
Cruisers are upgrading to the Newer (Concave designs)
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Old 30-12-2012, 19:33   #104
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Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

Kobra: In terms of simple holding capacity the Kobra is very good, up there with the other contenders. In terms of being a knock off, no more than any other anchor. Much better than a Delta and streets ahead of a CQR, there is no comparison. Its marginally easier to stow than a Delta but the hinge might introduce a weakness. I'd question shank strength. They are made in China and cheap as chips (french fries?). Beef up the shank, weld the hinge - it would be a recommended buy.

But it was the recommendation that a Kobra could be bought 2 sizes smaller than a 'normal' anchor (I assume they mean a Delta, CQR or Bruce as its the UK) that I tried to high-light. Obviously with a singular lack of success

In Europe (and Australia) there is a choice of anchors that Americans cannot even dream of, successful anchors are not restricted to Rocna, Supreme and Spade The Kobra is good, though I have reservations - but don't dismiss anything not sitting on American shelves. There's a whole swathe of other European (and Oz) anchor designs, that get good reviews, its a pity you have such a restricted choice. (Having said that I have never seen a genuine Danforth on an Oz chandlers shelf (or even one on the bow of an Oz yacht) but oddly have seen them in Japan - so we can only dream on designs you have - but we do not dismiss them, Danforth, Mantus, Super Max et al, just because we do not see them.)

Best wishes for 2013.

Gorgeous weather here today, so its fireworks tonight
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Old 30-12-2012, 20:12   #105
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Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

Cotemar;

The survey lacks some credibility.

The poll designers do not have the courtesy to spell Manson correctly, which if CF are looking for advertisers is not a very diplomatic move.

You differentiate between the Delta and CQR but do not differentiate between Manson's Supreme, Boss etc, more diplomacy?

You completely ignore Anchor Right's products even though the Excel thread has had more visits than any other recent anchor thread. AR do not need to advertise, the Excel thread has attracted interest on its own?

You ignore a whole host of European designs, more lost advertising opportunity.

You ignore the Ultra, which had mention from someone intending to buy one (I think in America) - but vaguely indicative of acceptability.

Basically the poll questions are amerocentric - so useful in that regard, but not much else. If it is construed it is a balanced world view - I think that would be a mistake. It could be that the intent of the poll was to find what N Americans might be buying, but I suspect it does not reflect European nor Australian usage. As a Mod - maybe you want to re-think what the poll was for and consider whether the 'rest of the world' matters.

What it indicates to me is that N Americans have a restricted choice of anchors, sad really

But, still, have a happy and healthy 2013.
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