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Old 27-12-2012, 16:55   #46
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Re: Manson Supreme in weed

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Originally Posted by belizesailor View Post
Absolutely, when I am running charters aboard larger vessels this "scale effect" is very noticeable. Ran a charter last week aboard a Lagoon 50 which had about a 110lb Delta and it rocked in weeds. Dove down to check it and it was well buried. I've anchored in the same spot in smaller vessels with lighter anchors and was glad the wind did not pick up. Big difference in weed performance when the weight goes up. In my experience this applies across anchor types.
+1

Anchor performance does not scale smoothly.

As to what anchor performs best in weed:

Theoretically, the Spade should be best -- because it (a) has a very sharp point; and (b) it is lead ballasted, so denser. The Rocnas have a much duller fluke. I have no experience of the Mansons.

I have changed to a 100 pound Spade from a 121 pound Rocna. I can't say that they Spade is dramatically better in weed, but it seems to be better. My Rocna would often fail to set in weed, whereas the Spade only sometimes fails. But both Rocna and Spade have failed to set in situations where there was no logical explanation of why. The Spade definitely sets better in soft mud -- it sinks in where the Rocna would seem to float on the surface.

The Spade is much easier to handle -- the shank is angled more and it comes up over the bow roller much better. And the Rocna was just a little too big to be easy to handle.

Another big jump forward in handling for me came with eliminating the swivel. I had a giant Kong swivel which would jam in the bow roller. I changed to a Wichard stainless shackle last summer which comes over smoothly. The big difference is that the Spade, since it is lead-ballasted, comes up the right way up every time. The Rocna was not really balanced and would usually, it seemed, come up upside down, and the swivel was needed so that we could horse the Rocna around into the correct orientation.
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Old 27-12-2012, 18:01   #47
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Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

I don't anchor much, but still have some thoughts. I'm obsessing about anchors....once again.

Our heavy 44' cutter came with a 45# CQR. I never felt comfortable with it.

We have a long sprit and the anchor rollers were very close to center line. Also, the aperture for the anchor stock was quite small, a common problem with sprit boats. The roll bar anchors were out because of them coming up under the sprit. the roll bar hits. Others, such as Delta, were out because the shank was too tall.

We ended up with a 66# Spade because it was the biggest modern anchor we could get to fit the aperture. The difference is in how the shank is constructed. Most modern anchors have a very simple shank of thick steel plate, strong in one direction but not so much to the side. The Spade has a welded triangular shank, thus it is lower and wider, but should also be stronger in a side load situation. The the Spade fit, but others did not.

OTOH the Spade has these little “wings” off the tips of the anchor that help keep it upright and let it set better. The problem is that these wings catch on the boom stay making launching “R rated for language.”

Comparing drawings of the Spade and Supreme, the Spade looks smaller than a similar weight Supreme. I traced the drawings into a CAD program and scaled them to make sure of a good fit. I think this is because the Spade has so much of its weight in the lead filled tip. It is a funny thing to pick up, because the center of balance is NOT where your eye tells you it will be.

I used the Spade a few times this summer. One time I could not get it to set. Some locals came by and razzed me about trying to anchor in that spot, apparently an old fish plant used to dispose of it offal there. Sure enough, the bottom was like baby poo, and the anchor just would NOT grab. That has been the only time it has failed me. Still I would like at least the option of a bigger roll-bar type anchor.

To accommodate my wishes I found some significant rust in the sprit and it needs to be replaced. I have redesigned the sprit and anchor mounting so that the anchors will be moved forward and outward. According to my drawings (fantasy?) I should be able to handle any size roll bar, the limitation will actually be on how small I can go as the bar of a small anchor will hit the tip of the sprit, but bigger anchors will clear.

Thanks for the info on kelp only growing on rock. We have some significant kelp beds in Newfoundland and it can be a PITA.

Locals generally use a homemade grapnel anchor, but apparently even there size matters.

BTW, yes, that IS a hunk of railroad rail, and heavy rail at that.
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Old 27-12-2012, 22:50   #48
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Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

I don't know if I'd modify my bowsprit to take a roll bar anchor if I already had a spade!! Spades are great, but way too expensive where I live. I have a bowsprit, so opted for the Boss. So far, so good.

If it were me, I'd call my anchoring problem solved and use your boat bucks on something other than sprit mods.
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Old 28-12-2012, 02:39   #49
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Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

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Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post

There is a lot of conflicting data about the loads placed on the anchor, but I would not expect a 16kg anchor, even of modern design, on a 38foot cat to enormously secure in adverse conditions. If you were upwind of me with a forcast of a winter storm. I would probably move.
But then if it were a forecast winter (or summer) storm, we would have deployed, by dinghy, our 8kg FX23 at 30 degrees to the 16kg Excel, we'ed be tucked in closer to shore than you, we'ed be using 2 x 10mm x 13m nylon snubbers on the Excel and we'ed have the option of upto 40m of nylon (in addition to the 30m of chain) for the Fortress. We know it works - because we have used it. The rest of the time there would not really be need to deploy a, say, 30kg anchor - which is a great bonus because I dislike pulling the anchor over the bow roller with the winch, huge loads as the shackle and anchor come over the roller - and I lift the final metre by hand.

Just something to conjure with, but a 16kg Excel set at 800kg, the sort of load generated by a decent wind - when snatch loaded at 90 degrees on a wire rode - will withstand in excess of 2,000kg without damage to the shank (or any other part of the anchor). Alternatively if you simply keep loading the 16kg anchor with a straight line pull it will continue to dive holding loads of 2,000kg. Tests need be stopped at this point, because it takes so long to dig the anchor out and the winch might burn out. So theoretically - with the forecast storm (and they tend to have winds consistently from one quadrant) the biggest difficulty with the smaller anchor will be getting it out when the winds ease.

When anchored in 12 inches of sand over rock, it does not matter how big the anchor is (within reason). You need to hope you catch a crack in the rock (and this might be easier with a smaller anchor), you also need to hope the wind direction does not change - like weed, the most sensible option is to move. It is seldom that rock is completely flat and sand an even 12 inch coverage. Coffs Harbour has this issue - but there are large enough sand patches in which to anchor with complete safety.

Finally - I'm not tempted by roll bars, because we would need to change the complete bow roller assembly to take one and I think there are anchors as good, Spade, Excel, Fortress (compromises for someone everywhere). But I have been concerned over the comment earlier, what was it 'scarily lifting a huge clod of mud'?

So I'm interested in comment (as I have not used a roll bar in anger) and in comment on the Boss, following the logic - imagine buying an oversize Boss?
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Old 28-12-2012, 03:26   #50
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Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

Really a cruising should be designed, or modified, so that it comfortably manage a large sized anchor, with some sort of workable back up system.
I am surprised by your comments of huge loads as the anchor comes over the bow roller. At this stage there is very little chain, so therefore little weight. The forces should only be light. Likewise retrieving the last meter by hand, when its blowing too hard to stand and water is breaking over the bow sounds like a recipe for broken fingers, or worse, even with a 16Kg anchor.
It does not have to be like this, large anchors can be managed easily and safely with the right equipment.

I am not convinced that much additional holding is gained when a second anchor is deployed. It's just too difficult to share the load. As well you have the added complication of swinging differently to other boats as well as the complications of deployment and possible retrieval.

Some storms are not forecast which means sooner or later you will be caught lying to single smaller anchor. If storm force winds arrive unexpectedly deploying a second anchor is often not possible.

If you are planning on deploying two anchors when adverse conditions are forecast you still have the same cost and weight as a single larger anchor, perhaps more weight as you need to store extra chain and rode. (if you are planning on deploying two you will still need at least one more anchor and rode as back up) but the majority of the time you don't get the benefits.

Even in "normal conditions" a larger anchor provides benefits, such as the ability to anchor with a shorter scope, or in less favourable substrates.

No boat is perfect and you have developed an anchoring system that works with compromises associated with your boat, but it is not an ideal system IMHO.

Sorry to be blunt, but you did ask to be shown the error of your ways. I can only point out those shortcomings as I see them.
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Old 28-12-2012, 04:45   #51
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Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

Thanks for being blunt.

We've done Tasmania primarily the west coast a number of times (and excluding cyclones it enjoys Australia's worst weather). What we have works and we have sat out Storms, (F10 to you?) on every trip, usually under our, one, puny anchor. Obviously you have come to a similar conclusion with your system.

I am guessing every cruising yacht carries extra chain and an extra anchor (one yacht I know has an inventory of 7 anchors). Rather than one big anchor we use one anchor regularly and use one other anchor and our spare warp when the needs arise. We have 2 more anchors (one a full sized alloy Spade) and enough rope to tie up a superyacht. My deduction of your practice is to use, what I might call, your storm anchor all the time. But we could deploy the second anchor from the yacht - its easier to do it from the dinghy (and in the past we have always had the time and weather in which to deploy it). 2 anchors are not used, by us, specifically, to share the load but to reduce swinging, yawing. 2 rodes steadies the yacht, reduces snatching and its snatching that could cause dragging, reduce snatching, you reduce the loads. Add to that decent snubbers on a bridle.

As I mentioned the biggest problem is getting the Excel to break out if you leave lifting the anchor till the point when waves are breaking over the bow with the winds generating those seas. We actually sat and watched 13 of 14 yachts drag their anchors (we were the 14th) - when we came to lift ours, discretion etc etc, the problem was breaking the anchor out. 'Even' small modern anchors dive so deep, under real load, you needs stand on the bow waiting for them to break free. In many respects our experience is that the holding capacity is too much - accepting that 'too much' gives us the safety margin.

I would agree winches and bow rollers should be designed to take an anchor smoothly. We can operate our whole system from the helm (excepting locking the anchor once its up) but that does not mean that I like the anchor jerking as the shackle hits the bow roller and the anchor then flips up. We could change the system, but our bow roller is the torsion beam holding the forebeam to the centre of the bridge deck - and we can suffer the inadequacies of the system rather than have a whole new set of beams engineered and built!

I do confess I have not tried a bigger anchor to test the advatages - but this is primarily because what we have has been proven to work. If we did not sleep at night I would be the first to try a big and/or different anchor. It might also engender a relaxed time at anchor as I have actually tested anchors (including the Rocna, Supreme, Fortress and Spade), as described on earlier posts.

One thing we did do was try, in a number of seabeds, to anchor using a really small Excel, 5kg - I can assure you that does not work. So too small is not a panacea There are limits!

But one thing this thread (and another similar thread) has done is to indicate there is a large enough body of opinion behind 'big is better' that merits looking at the concept, but it will take months before there are any findings. We already have a programme to quantify different snubbers.

Thanks Noelex!
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Old 28-12-2012, 06:50   #52
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Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

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Originally Posted by cwyckham View Post
I don't know if I'd modify my bowsprit to take a roll bar anchor if I already had a spade!! Spades are great, but way too expensive where I live. I have a bowsprit, so opted for the Boss. So far, so good.

If it were me, I'd call my anchoring problem solved and use your boat bucks on something other than sprit mods.

After buying the very expensive Spade I discovered the sprit had some serious corrosion issues. So it has to be replaced, no matter what.

BTW, when comparing Spade construction to roll bars the additional cost becomes more visible. Lots of hand work to make the shaft and then pour the lead.

The sprit corrosion was interesting. It had been reinforced at manufacture with additional plating where the bow roller spindle pierced the sprit. The area around the welds went. So somehow the welding made the metal more susceptible to corrosion. This year, as a temp fix, I scabbed on a bit of additional box beam along the bottom. But that is not permanent.

Also the old sprit did not give good support to the platform, wobbly. It was 3x3 box beam with no whiskers.

New sprit will be 316, same size as origional, platform edge outlined by 2x2box beam of 316 that support the platform and do job of whiskers. A cross beam welded underneath will stiffen the fabrication and provide a welded mount for the bow rollers, where I want them.

I am adding some weight up front, but @ 44,000 lb I think it is negligible.
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Old 28-12-2012, 07:01   #53
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Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

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But then if it were a forecast winter (or summer) storm, we would have deployed, by dinghy, our 8kg FX23 at 30 degrees to the 16kg Excel, we'ed be tucked in closer to shore than you, we'ed be using 2 x 10mm x 13m nylon snubbers on the Excel and we'ed have the option of upto 40m of nylon (in addition to the 30m of chain) for the Fortress. We know it works - because we have used it. The rest of the time there would not really be need to deploy a, say, 30kg anchor - which is a great bonus because I dislike pulling the anchor over the bow roller with the winch, huge loads as the shackle and anchor come over the roller - and I lift the final metre by hand.

Just something to conjure with, but a 16kg Excel set at 800kg, the sort of load generated by a decent wind - when snatch loaded at 90 degrees on a wire rode - will withstand in excess of 2,000kg without damage to the shank (or any other part of the anchor). Alternatively if you simply keep loading the 16kg anchor with a straight line pull it will continue to dive holding loads of 2,000kg. Tests need be stopped at this point, because it takes so long to dig the anchor out and the winch might burn out. So theoretically - with the forecast storm (and they tend to have winds consistently from one quadrant) the biggest difficulty with the smaller anchor will be getting it out when the winds ease.

When anchored in 12 inches of sand over rock, it does not matter how big the anchor is (within reason). You need to hope you catch a crack in the rock (and this might be easier with a smaller anchor), you also need to hope the wind direction does not change - like weed, the most sensible option is to move. It is seldom that rock is completely flat and sand an even 12 inch coverage. Coffs Harbour has this issue - but there are large enough sand patches in which to anchor with complete safety.

Finally - I'm not tempted by roll bars, because we would need to change the complete bow roller assembly to take one and I think there are anchors as good, Spade, Excel, Fortress (compromises for someone everywhere). But I have been concerned over the comment earlier, what was it 'scarily lifting a huge clod of mud'?

So I'm interested in comment (as I have not used a roll bar in anger) and in comment on the Boss, following the logic - imagine buying an oversize Boss?
If it where me and I had a 38 foot cat I would have went up one size to allow for the extra windage of a cat.
You went with a 16kg (35 pound) Sarca Excel.
I would have gone with a 22kg (48 pound) new gen. roll bar anchor.
I like to sleep with both eyes closed, not just one.
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Old 28-12-2012, 14:38   #54
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Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

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Originally Posted by Cotemar View Post
If it where me and I had a 38 foot cat I would have went up one size to allow for the extra windage of a cat.
You went with a 16kg (35 pound) Sarca Excel.
I would have gone with a 22kg (48 pound) new gen. roll bar anchor.
I like to sleep with both eyes closed, not just one.
I agree I would prefer a larger size for a 38ft cat despite jonJo not having any issues in Tasmania.

Cotemar, you don't get to see the SARCA Excel in the states. I also would take a similar sized Excel before the ROCNA. Not here suggesting the ROCNA is not a good anchor at the correct tensile strength but that the SARCA Excel is proving to be a great anchor.

Cheers
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Old 28-12-2012, 14:50   #55
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Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

From experience----it takes only one incident to make believers in larger anchors. My incident happened in Cuttyhunk, Massachusetts. My toy anchor would not hold and there were no moorings or slips. We were very fortunate to find a person who was about to leave during our mooring search.

I vowed that this would NEVER happen again to me. That incident was so many years ago that I cannot exactly remember the year. Since then I have always anchored only rarely taking a slip.

There is absolutely nothing worse than getting to the village only to find no room at the inn. Why risk putting your family and your boat in harms way with an untrusty anchor.

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Old 28-12-2012, 15:06   #56
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Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

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Originally Posted by Cotemar View Post
If it where me and I had a 38 foot cat I would have went up one size to allow for the extra windage of a cat.
You went with a 16kg (35 pound) Sarca Excel.
I would have gone with a 22kg (48 pound) new gen. roll bar anchor.
I like to sleep with both eyes closed, not just one.
I was mulling this over.

What we find with testing is that if you take a small roll bar anchor and drag it in sand then like many other anchors it works well. Take the same anchor and add some organic, weed, or clay to the seabed and load it up then on retrieval the fluke is completely cogged with a very compacted dewatered, it looks dry, lump of seabed. This is not only a comment of testing - the same comment appears in many threads that discuss concave roll bar anchors. Still testing - Clean out the small anchor, needs trowel, repeat but keep loading and what happens is the clod becomes immovable and the fluke stops functioning. You have an 'anchor' consisting of a 5kg 'frame' holding maybe 15kg of seabed. Still works but as a dead weight not a modern anchor. The same happens with weed - the fluke clogs. In a change of tide/wind - this clod takes time to wash out, depends on the seabed, but you could open those 2 eyes and find yourself somewhere other than where you started.

This really is only a big issue if you load the anchor up, take a larger anchor and you get the same effect but at a 2,000kg load - not 500kg load (for the smaller anchor). However in a decent wind, and having the right sized anchor (USL codes) you can clog a concave roll bar. Use a bigger one, less load per size of anchor - not such a big issue, problem solved.

Cotemar and Noelex, take some time to read the adjoining SARCA Excel thread. You will find people who use these anchors, use the size suggested by Anchor Right who rely on the USL codes (that appear to have worked well for decades, the USL codes). Interestingly Classification Societies allow a 30% reducution in weight for SHHP anchors - no suggestion of going 2 sizes up. None of the people who posted on the Excel thread suggested they had an anchor too small, all said the anchor held like concrete, set quickly and fitted on their bow roller without modification.

You both are willing to suggest your ideas but I suspect neither of you has tried an Excel - and maybe never seen one. To my mind your ideas are based on your own limited (in terms of anchor design) experiences with what I, and one or two others, might suggest are anchors with a few flaws. Fortunately going up in size, partially removes your problems - but the problem still remains

viz the anchors choke.

One of the other interesting facets of the 'big is better' school of thought is that it is supported largely by people with concave, roll bar anchors - but maybe this is just coincidence and those of us with these puny Excels are all getting by with luck. I'm not sure how much support for the 'big is better' thesis is given by the anchor makers themselves, lots I suspect as they sell bigger anchors (more money) and if anything goes wrong they can happily say, cannot be the anchor its 'big is better'.

Sorry to be blunt, but I've at least tried all of them.
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Old 28-12-2012, 15:21   #57
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Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

Foggysail,

We sympathise, we became experts at dragging our CQR copy!

But if you do not anchor as a result of the past I might recommend you find someone who can lend you the right sized Spade, lets not argue about the right size! Put it on your chain deploy the right length of chain, min of 5:1 - try and choose a seabed with sand or sand and mud. Set the anchor, put your engines in full reverse and sit there for a few minutes. You should be stationary. Now drive over the anchor at 180 degrees to pull it out, do this gently, low revs, once its out slowly back up and reset it (you are trying to simulate a change of tide) and once its reset reverse up hard.

I think your engines are pretty powerful - this might allow you to become a bit more confident.

Then, return the borrowed Spade, go off and buy yourself a decent anchor. They do work!
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Old 28-12-2012, 15:25   #58
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Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

Cotemar,

A SARCA Excel No 4, which is ours, is for a yacht upto 12m (we are actually 10.5m (plus a 1m sealevel transom) and weighing upto 7t, we are 6t fully laden, 400l of water and 240l of fuel (and sadly we never seem to have 400l of water nor 240l of fuel (except on day 1).

Your point was?
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Old 28-12-2012, 15:54   #59
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Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

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Cotemar,

A SARCA Excel No 4, which is ours, is for a yacht upto 12m (we are actually 10.5m (plus a 1m sealevel transom) and weighing upto 7t, we are 6t fully laden, 400l of water and 240l of fuel (and sadly we never seem to have 400l of water nor 240l of fuel (except on day 1).

Your point was?
My point was cats have more windage so that is why everyone recommends going up one size for a cat verses a monohull
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Old 28-12-2012, 18:28   #60
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Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

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Foggysail,

We sympathise, we became experts at dragging our CQR copy!

But if you do not anchor as a result of the past I might recommend you find someone who can lend you the right sized Spade, lets not argue about the right size! Put it on your chain deploy the right length of chain, min of 5:1 - try and choose a seabed with sand or sand and mud. Set the anchor, put your engines in full reverse and sit there for a few minutes. You should be stationary. Now drive over the anchor at 180 degrees to pull it out, do this gently, low revs, once its out slowly back up and reset it (you are trying to simulate a change of tide) and once its reset reverse up hard.

I think your engines are pretty powerful - this might allow you to become a bit more confident.

Then, return the borrowed Spade, go off and buy yourself a decent anchor. They do work!
JonJo--

No, you misread my posts. (this is my second attempt to reply using my @#$% crappy laptop)

My friends at that time strongly advised always get a mooring, never anchor. But that flawed advice is exemplified in my earlier post where I got stuck at Cutty once with no available mooring or slips and my then anchor would not hold. This happened in my old Hunter 30 sailboat.

Since then I have secured great ground tackle and have no problems anchoring using my 80# Manson Supreme. I did have failures with Deltas, both with a 55 and 88# anchors.

My suggestion to others over the years is simple. Just plan for the awe shucks when you have no choices other than to anchor regardless of teh weather conditions. For that event one should have reliable ground tackle.

I installed almost 200' of 5/16HT chain for rode and a Maxwell HWC2200 or 2400, I forget which numbers without looking them up. And that windlass has a dedicated 24vdc battery/charger system. Now couple this with almost 300 watts of solar (I have another 300 thereabout in garage to add to the boat next season), a 7.5KW generator and finally I should have my completely automatic water maker onboard next spring. That will provide between 35-40 gallons/hour.

Foggy
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