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Old 02-01-2013, 18:51   #196
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Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

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Lancelot9898, made an interesting point - that the promotional information on the Oyster show it carrying a CQR and recent picture of the Gunfleet 43(? I think it was a 43, YM Jan '13 issue), at Stg0.5m seems to carry a Delta, but it might be a Bainbridge copy. At a more mundane level many yachts, most, seem to be commissioned in Oz with a Delta. One might have hoped that Gunfleet, Oyster, Hanse etc would actually know what they are doing and provide a bit of a lead. When we get away from civilisation we are still 'lucky' to see a new gen anchor - most people survive (I use 'survive' carefully) on a CQR (type), Delta or Bruce (type). Oddly the new gen anchor makers do not seem to recognise that the market is not other new' gen makers - but the thousands of old gens sitting on bow rollers. looking at a magazine front page (or any page inside) - its all Delta and CQR et al.

I see the purchasers of these yachts, with old gen anchors supplied as standard, looking slightly bemused when advised they need replace the old gen anchor with a new gen model (with twice the holding capacity) but really ought to replace that 30kg Delta with a 45kg (new gen whatever).

If people upwind of me had new gen anchors, to directly replace (weight for weight) their current models - I'd be more than happy (and the new gen anchor makers would laugh all the way to the bank).

I now have a monster new gen. I also carry 74# CQR, 55# Bruce, 35# danforth, 180# fisherman. Hard to get rid of one maybe needed for just that special situation.
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Old 02-01-2013, 19:40   #197
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Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

dang yall, when i read the title of the post i thought it was a post on some good killer weed, :-0

okay so its a lame joke
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Old 02-01-2013, 19:40   #198
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Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

I cannot fault Kettlewell's comment - I just find it odd, contrdictory, that yachtbuilders are happy to boast about their fancy resins, futuristic fibre reinforcement, sophisticated designs etc - and have a cheap anchor on the bow when their are better available. When I see the Delta I wonder what other old technology is hidden away and where else savings are made.

I appreciate in the grand scheme of things changing an anchor on a Stg0.5m yacht is not going to break a deal - why not show you are really up to date and have an efficient anchor in the first place. Currently it would differentiate you from the other boatbuilders.


As an aside, the anchor poll - Don was quite correct, it only shows what you want it to show, I'm suitably chastened (though prefer the extended numbers of designs). Its interesting that Fortress (presumably including Guardian) does not rate well but a significant number of people carry a Fortress (or 2) - in readiness for when the chips are down. We do not use ours every day (it does not fit on the bow roller - Kettlewell's point again) - but its there. The quiet achiever? Maybe better to be No2 on more yachts than No 1 on a few?
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Old 02-01-2013, 19:58   #199
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Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

Yachtmakers supply what's perceived as traditional and aesthetically pleasing. Like CQRs and Deltas. Not too large. You don't want a big, broad anchor with a roll bar destroying your boat's beautiful lines.
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Old 02-01-2013, 20:11   #200
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Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

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With respect I disagree. The number of boats that drag in gale, or storm is high. Some of these are due to poor technique, but many yachts with set anchors and reasonable scope etc. will drag once the winds rise.

Only a few boats hold in winds of 45 knots plus.

Kettlewell--

Noelex's worry above about boats in front of his is why I anchor out in the boondocks at Cutty. Not many care to venture into the middle near the poles. I have an almost private anchorage when we visit Cutty. And last year after a front came through (I really worried needlessly about slipping during the front) one could see numerous flashlights in the distance over in common anchorage. Tow Boat US got over there to help some off the shore.
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Old 02-01-2013, 20:14   #201
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Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

This might be useful... Bottom decides everything, and there are no absolutes.
From the testing we did one one new gen anchor weighing 25 lbs can set to 5000 lbs in one bottom and to less than 1000 lbs in another bottom, and that is assuming confirmed deep set. The difference between the Mantus, Spade, Rocna, Manson Supreme vs CQR, Delta, Bruce comes only in harder bottoms, and the edge is lost in softer bottoms ....
In these loose bottoms Dan-forth wins on holding per weight rating and Fortress even more so...
So if you are in such a locale with poor holding you might never know bc the anchor will certainly hold your boat when backing with an engine... But if the winds top 45 knots as you guys suggest the load on the anchor deployed of say a 30-35 foot boat can easily exceed 1000 lbs...
So no anchor design is full-proof, life is not that easy... it would not be fun that way...
In a storm, deploy a second anchor... or oversize your primary over manufacturers recommendations if you want to sleep well at night...... Unless you know the area and sea floor conditions...
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Old 03-01-2013, 13:39   #202
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Some great info has been produced as a result of my small query. I am amazed! We have been successful in weed this past week, but your posts have shown me complacency has no part in anchoring. We shall go cautiously forward. Thankyou all.
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Old 03-01-2013, 14:09   #203
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Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

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Originally Posted by JonJo View Post
I cannot fault Kettlewell's comment - I just find it odd, contrdictory, that yachtbuilders are happy to boast about their fancy resins, futuristic fibre reinforcement, sophisticated designs etc - and have a cheap anchor on the bow when their are better available. When I see the Delta I wonder what other old technology is hidden away and where else savings are made.

I appreciate in the grand scheme of things changing an anchor on a Stg0.5m yacht is not going to break a deal - why not show you are really up to date and have an efficient anchor in the first place. Currently it would differentiate you from the other boatbuilders.


As an aside, the anchor poll - Don was quite correct, it only shows what you want it to show, I'm suitably chastened (though prefer the extended numbers of designs). Its interesting that Fortress (presumably including Guardian) does not rate well but a significant number of people carry a Fortress (or 2) - in readiness for when the chips are down. We do not use ours every day (it does not fit on the bow roller - Kettlewell's point again) - but its there. The quiet achiever? Maybe better to be No2 on more yachts than No 1 on a few?
I guess most of those purchasers would be initially not long distance cruisers/racers expecting to spend lots of time in marinas and may not be fully aware of anchoring issues. Guess racers/weekend sailors discuss issues other than anchors (a favourite subject of cruisers).

On the other side the boat manufacturers accountants often descide the anchor.

As an aside the charter companies in the Whitsundays all use smallish CQR's. Whilst a percentage of nights can be spent on moorings they aren't prepared to spend money on new gen anchors.
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Old 03-01-2013, 14:34   #204
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Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

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I just don't see that, and I am old enough to have anchored in many gales prior to the existence of the so-called "new generation" anchors. Here on the East Coast it is very common to endure strong thunderstorms in the summer, with winds of 40-50 knots common. Yes, they are for short periods, but most boats do not drag. In my opinion those that do are almost universally due to poor technique. The reason I say this is I frequently get to observe them anchoring so I know what they have put down and how they do it, and they don't do it right. So, when I see two boats come in, one does it right one does it wrong, and the one that did it wrong drags, I attribute it to technique, not the anchor. But, on the other hand, there are situations where the bottom is such poor holding or you can't put out adequate scope and many will drag. Very rarely is dragging due to insufficient holding power of the anchor

When bad weather is forecast I pay close attention (as you should do) to boats anchoring around me. In most case I will dive, to check there anchors.
I know the boats that drag due to inadequate technique and conversely those that drag due to a falure of their anchor to hold.
The common belief expressed on CF that an adequate anchor set with reasonable skill will hold reliably in strong wind. This is not what I see.

However it not unusual for sailors to quote peak wind strength when describing conditions at anchor. Many of the "45 knot storms" really only have an average wind strength 30 knots, or less, where very little force is placed on the anchor.

Not many boats anchor in genuine storm force conditions. Most of those that do have the best oversized anchors and even then dragging is quite common.
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Old 03-01-2013, 18:08   #205
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Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

[QUOTE=noelex 77;1120971)

Not many boats anchor in genuine storm force conditions. Most of those that do have the best oversized anchors and even then dragging is quite common.[/QUOTE]

I know very few people at all who anchor in genuine storm force conditions. Most people we have spoken to 'when sitting out a storm' (and our own experience) have gone somewhere where the impact of the storm is minimised - they are commonly recognised and well documented (for places without 'cruising guides' buy the relevant Admiralty Pilots - cheap second hand) as anchorages (or 'small boat anchorages' in the Pilots). By definition such places enjoy shelter from seas and very commonly from wind. So we have known lots of people sitting out a storm but it is really exceptional if they record continuous winds of average 50 knots. Some anchorages do not enjoy too much shelter (from the wind) but even then the hull is usually, much, lower than the coastline and though winds might be recorded at 50 knots at the masthead (and less on a little yacht than a big one) - it will be less on the deck - both the height effect and the shelter from the low coastline.

Here, and our worst conditions would, possibly, be a cyclone - people would get into the mangroves, deploy a web of lines to anchors and trees. The mast head (maybe above the trees) would record winds much stronger than anything felt on deck (sheltered by the trees).

What we do find however is that its the gusts that are the big issue, rather than the average, and its the gusts that cause the yacht to veer (sail at anchor) that are the biggest cause of anchors dragging. We know of anchorages that are ostensibly sheltered but generate bullets (often much stronger than the average 'outside') that can blow at 180 degrees to each other.

If we were in an anchorage where the yacht in front was relying on one, even, oversize anchor we would move (to one side or the other). Any anchor can drag (it can catch something in the fluke as it creeps at 5cm an hour). One anchor does not help reduce veering and they, the yacht, will be subject to potential snatch loads in strong winds and 'veering' wind gusts.

It is fascinating the numbers of people on this thread that carry a Fortress/Guardian (which, equally commonly, have what seems to be 2x the surface area of their main anchor) - to be deployed, additionally, in storm conditions. Noelex, you have some support from some people with regard to oversize anchors - so the idea merits investigation, but even some of them are not totally convinced as they also carry 'storm' anchors But belt and braces does seem sensible.

The anchor poll, the other thread - looks to define the most common main anchor. It might be interesting to define what people use when the chips are down, or what they use as their storm anchor (which might also be their main anchor).
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Old 03-01-2013, 18:48   #206
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Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

When you experience a large gust front associated with a thunderstorm, it will probably happen when you've deployed one anchor and the Fortress is in the bilge, disassembled. There may be a significant wind shift. There will be some kind of bottom: hard-packed sand or weed that calls for an anchor with a sharp edge and penetrating capability, or maybe soft sand or mud that calls for an anchor with large surface area.

A practical plan is a modern primary anchor (Rocna, MS, Spade, Mantus, etc), not too small, and well set. This is not the only solution, but it's a good starting point.
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Old 03-01-2013, 19:12   #207
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Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

Back to the OP (believe it or not!), I don't believe I've ever seen an anchor test in weed. Of course there are many different types of weed, but it would be interesting to get some data on this. Maybe choose a notoriously weedy harbor where people are known to have difficulty and compare some of the designs. It would require multiple sets, because sometimes you luck out and drop your anchor right in someone else's old anchor hole or on the one clear spot around. In fact, that is often the real trick in a weedy harbor--keep fishing around until you luck out and drop your anchor in a spot that it can get to decent holding.

Is weed a frequent problem in the Med.? Thick weed is not all that common here on the East Coast of the USA, though some grass is frequently encountered.
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Old 03-01-2013, 19:38   #208
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Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

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Is weed a frequent problem in the Med.? Thick weed is not all that common here on the East Coast of the USA, though some grass is frequently encountered.
Yes.

And it is simply different. The weed sometimes grows in clumps surrounded by small channels of sand. What we have seen is that the anchor will stick in the side of the clump.

I think here in the States we think of weed growing on a flat mostly sandy or clay bottom. That isn't what I observed in the Med.
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Old 03-01-2013, 19:51   #209
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Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

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The weed sometimes grows in clumps surrounded by small channels of sand. What we have seen is that the anchor will stick in the side of the clump.
I have seen that in Florida and the Bahamas and it is treacherous because you might think your anchor is holding when it is actually just hooked on a clump of weed.
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Old 06-01-2013, 14:07   #210
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Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

I think this graph, taken a few minutes ago, illustrates the problems when discussing wind strength and anchor holding.
At the moment its only blowing about 30, maybe 35 knots. But many of the peak gusts, some of them sustained, have been well over 50knots.
On the other hand the lulls have been down to 20knots or less.

I would describe this as a 30k or low 30k wind, but others would describe it as higher.

There is a reasonable argument that maybe the stronger gusts are what is important, but I have found a wide variation when cruisers get together and discuss these conditions.
The same conditions may be described as 30k or 50k.

A genuine (as I would define it ) 50 k wind is very different from the moderate wind that is present at the mp moment.
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