Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on Cruisers Forums. Advertise Here
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 02-01-2013, 12:14   #181
S/V rubber ducky
 
sailorboy1's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Florida cruising currently
Boat: Hunter 410
Posts: 18,012
Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

But that's a reset. I've anchored my MS in weed and it held just fine and ripped up a good section when coming up.
__________________
It is OK if others want to do it different on THEIR boat
sailorboy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2013, 14:57   #182
Moderator
 
noelex 77's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Boat: Bestevaer.
Posts: 12,569
Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Lucas View Post
Don't all properly sized anchors in weed hold just fine,..... once set?

I think overall all anchoring is not entirely secure even with the best equipment and good bottom conditions. In storm force winds my guess is maybe 60%+ boats anchored will drag. Most of these boats have set themselves up with better anchoring gear than normal. Otherwise they would not be anchoring in these conditions.
If you took an average cross section of boats that would normally ride out these winds in a marina then the number of boats dragging would rise to 75% +

Weed is a real lottery. Once the anchor has penetrated the weed the result is quite secure, but the numbers that drag at moderate wind strengths say 30knots will be much higher.

The best anchoring gear and sound techniques help, but think of anchoring in strong winds a little like sailing in strong winds. The best equipment is no guarantee of success. You need to monitor the situation and be prepared for problems.

Larger, better anchors are an enormous help, but security in average winds of 45-50 knots and above is not guaranteed given the variability in bottom holding

However, damage in marinas, and even on the hard stand, is not unusual at these wind strengths when in overseas marinas that do have the guaranteed safety standards of first world countries.

Even with the best oversized anchor available my tenure is not secure. I frequently send a little prayer up to St Nicholas to keep us safe.
noelex 77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2013, 15:32   #183
cruiser

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Pittwater, Sydney
Boat: Lightwave, Catamaran, 11.5m (38')
Posts: 1,000
Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

If an anchor maker claims his anchor will not drag, buy a different anchor. The anchor maker is not being honest and if not honest about dragging, what else is he not honest about.

One theme in this and other threads is take care to set your anchor properly, Noelex goes so far as to then dive on the anchor to check its set - in clear and flattish water you can do this from a dinghy.

Colemji has analysed correctly, its about surface area (of new design anchors) not weight. We have tried an alloy and steel Spade and alloy and steel Excel. Each had an identical match, same surface area, though the Excel has a thicker shank. We have tested off the beach and used both on a 2x 800nm cruise with about 10 different anchorages (and different seabeds). We cannot tell the difference between the alloy and steel versions - in terms of an ability to set and hold. We were never subject to anything more than 35 knots but we have no hesitation in carrying either (or both) alloys as part of our inventory. Alloy does have a potential downsize - strength (compared with ASTM 514 steel) but alloy is stronger than stainless and both the Spade and Excel have 'engineered' shanks. There is an argument that light anchors cannot cope with certain seabeds - we never tried to set in medium or heavy weed, but in anything else could not tell the difference.

My view is that an anchor oversize (surface area) for the yacht will not set so deeply as one the correct size and in a wind shift has considerably more chance of pulling out, because it was not set so deeply. It might re-set itself but there again, it might not, and if you took so much care setting it in the first place - why do you expect it to set itself in a wind shift. Well set anchors shuffle round, if the wind shift is slow enough - so no problem, less well set large anchors, as advocated by the big is better school of thought - I do not know and there is no evidence they know either.

There are too many comments now, Don, Kennomac, coming through (and this thread has been running for some time now) of people with concave, those popular anchors of the CF Poll, coming up filled with seabed. In YBW someone suggested that maybe their was a need for a thread on how best to clean out the fluke of concave anchors. I am not aware that anchors are designed to reset with a clod of seabed - so how are they going to re-set themselves? We now have 2 problems, concave coming up with a clod of seabed, think that 180 degree wind shift, or even tide, the fact that at 180 degrees anchors will sommersault anyway and we have the poorly set large anchor that has not been proven to shuffle in an even 90 degree wind shift (our observation is they fall over and need to re-set themselves).

I think there is something on resetting in Practical Sailor's February (but it might be March) edition, 2013. Virtually every published anchor test and every published advertorial from the anchor makers, of which Mantus is the current most vociferous, shows a straight line pull. The quicker we get into the real world when winds, or loads, vary in direction, so tests should investigate and define the impact of the variation. Even small anchors have enough holding capacity, 2,000kg+ from a 16kg anchor is enough for a 6t yacht, - we need a better understanding of what happens when the conditions change through upto 180 degrees. It is obvious we need to know more as to the performance of large anchors set with inadequate power, or load, cf smaller anchors well set.

I have no problem that a 50kg anchor is better than a 16kg anchor with a straight line pull, where we sail the winds change, we have fronts, thunderstorms and winds change through 180 degrees - suddenly, not quickly enough to let an anchor shuffle round. I do worry that the big anchor, not well set, will need to reset itself particularly as thunderstorms are not well forecast in out of the way places.
JonJo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2013, 15:46   #184
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,945
Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

Quote:
Even with the best oversized anchor available my tenure is not secure. I frequently send a little prayer up to St Nicholas to keep us safe.
I don't think the situation is so tenuous. A lot depends on the bottom type and the shelter from seas. Many anchorages here on the East Coast and down to the Bahamas have tremendous holding ground in thick mud or soft sand. If you get a good burying anchor well dug in, almost any type, I would venture to guess that something would break before you could pull the anchor out. I've anchored through a few hurricanes and tropical storms, a tornado, and a lot of lesser stuff, and after all of these events the problem was retrieving various anchors. After Hurricane Bob, with locally recorded gusts ashore of 100 mph until the anemometer blew away, it took me a good chunk of a day to retrieve two Fortress FX-23s from the bottom in Cuttyhunk, which some people have noted as having poor holding--not if you get your anchor properly set in the mud! I would windlass the bow down on my boat as far as I could, with the chain bar taught and straight down, and then I would jump up and down on the stern of the boat, trying to pry it loose. Motoring on it just brought the boat to a complete stop. When I eventually pulled it out, based on the mud on the chain, the anchor must have been about six feet down in the mud. I'm convinced that at normal scope no wind would have pulled that anchor out. Same thing after a tornado with stronger winds in the Chesapeake. There is some weed in that harbor too, but if you can get the burying anchor down to real holding ground it isn't going anywhere. That's one thing that worries me somewhat about the roll bar types--will they be able to bury enough?
__________________
Kettlewell Cruising
Kettlewell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2013, 15:50   #185
Moderator
 
noelex 77's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Boat: Bestevaer.
Posts: 12,569
Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

I think the concerns about oversized anchors not resetting is unfounded.
I have watched my overside anchor reset to new wind direction on many occasions and it has never broken out. It has always shuffled around, staying set to the new orientation.
Older generation anchors will sometimes unset when changing orientation, but not the new generation anchors ( Fortress excluded)

A larger heavier anchor is slower to change position which helps it remain set
noelex 77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2013, 16:01   #186
Moderator
 
noelex 77's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Boat: Bestevaer.
Posts: 12,569
Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

The view that straight line pull is irrelevant I believe is flawed. Given no change in wind direction many yachts will drag when the wind strength increases. I wish it was not so. Especially when they are in front of me
noelex 77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2013, 16:08   #187
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,945
Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

Noelex, I don't believe anyone is saying that straight line holding is irrelevant, just that a well dug in anchor of a normal size probably provides more straight line holding than most boats would need in a gale or better.
__________________
Kettlewell Cruising
Kettlewell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2013, 16:29   #188
Moderator
 
noelex 77's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Boat: Bestevaer.
Posts: 12,569
Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kettlewell View Post
Noelex, I don't believe anyone is saying that straight line holding is irrelevant, just that a well dug in anchor of a normal size probably provides more straight line holding than most boats would need in a gale or better.
With respect I disagree. The number of boats that drag in gale, or storm is high. Some of these are due to poor technique, but many yachts with set anchors and reasonable scope etc. will drag once the winds rise.

Only a few boats hold in winds of 45 knots plus.
noelex 77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2013, 16:50   #189
cruiser

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Pittwater, Sydney
Boat: Lightwave, Catamaran, 11.5m (38')
Posts: 1,000
Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

Noelex,

I think we agree that in strong winds, gale, storm - many yachts will drag, it might have something to do with technique but our assessment is that they are using old style anchors, Delta, CQR or Bruce. It would not matter how good the technique. The discussion, I had thought, took as read we were only including new style, high holding capacity anchors - if this is general, all anchors, I cannot comment on whether an oversize Delta et al are better - though Foggysail seems to indicate that size is not relevant - they still drag.

Kettlewell,

I think our anchorages (east coast) are like yours, our coastal bays tend to be good clean sand, some soft, some hard and our estuaries mud. Some of our bays have weed and some mud, but nothing exceptional, and it is usually quite easy to find a decent sand patch or move a mile of so and find somwhere weed free. Once we get south, our south coast and Tasmania, weed becomes a real issue, in the extreme kelp, and we also have some bays, in the south, that are sand free simply rocks, boulders and pebbles. Up north, on the east coast, sands are coral derived and clean, but can have coral rubble - and we are obviously dioscouraged from anchoring anywhere near living coral.

So your experiences, or seabeds, would not be that dissimilar to ours.
JonJo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2013, 17:05   #190
CF Adviser
 
Bash's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: sausalito
Boat: 14 meter sloop
Posts: 7,260
Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonJo View Post
So on the assumption the storm anchor is better

What is it?
Not necessarily better, just there for a different purpose.

Working anchor: Rocna 25 kg
Kedge: Guardian G-37 (Made by Fortress)
Storm anchor: Fortress Fx-55
__________________
cruising is entirely about showing up--in boat shoes.
Bash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2013, 17:46   #191
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,945
Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

Quote:
With respect I disagree. The number of boats that drag in gale, or storm is high. Some of these are due to poor technique, but many yachts with set anchors and reasonable scope etc. will drag once the winds rise.
I just don't see that, and I am old enough to have anchored in many gales prior to the existence of the so-called "new generation" anchors. Here on the East Coast it is very common to endure strong thunderstorms in the summer, with winds of 40-50 knots common. Yes, they are for short periods, but most boats do not drag. In my opinion those that do are almost universally due to poor technique. The reason I say this is I frequently get to observe them anchoring so I know what they have put down and how they do it, and they don't do it right. So, when I see two boats come in, one does it right one does it wrong, and the one that did it wrong drags, I attribute it to technique, not the anchor. But, on the other hand, there are situations where the bottom is such poor holding or you can't put out adequate scope and many will drag. Very rarely is dragging due to insufficient holding power of the anchor and too much wind--yes, it happens, but I don't think that is the majority of the dragging cases.

Quote:
I think we agree that in strong winds, gale, storm - many yachts will drag, it might have something to do with technique but our assessment is that they are using old style anchors, Delta, CQR or Bruce. It would not matter how good the technique.
I really didn't have many issues back in the days of CQRs and Danforths--never liked the Bruce anchor, which was a dragger. My boat at anchor rode out Hurricane Gloria and the eye passed over her. Most of the mooring field that was upwind of my boat dragged by and ended up on the beach behind her. Two Danforths and a CQR in a star pattern.
__________________
Kettlewell Cruising
Kettlewell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2013, 18:35   #192
cruiser

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Pittwater, Sydney
Boat: Lightwave, Catamaran, 11.5m (38')
Posts: 1,000
Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

Lancelot9898, made an interesting point - that the promotional information on the Oyster show it carrying a CQR and recent picture of the Gunfleet 43(? I think it was a 43, YM Jan '13 issue), at Stg0.5m seems to carry a Delta, but it might be a Bainbridge copy. At a more mundane level many yachts, most, seem to be commissioned in Oz with a Delta. One might have hoped that Gunfleet, Oyster, Hanse etc would actually know what they are doing and provide a bit of a lead. When we get away from civilisation we are still 'lucky' to see a new gen anchor - most people survive (I use 'survive' carefully) on a CQR (type), Delta or Bruce (type). Oddly the new gen anchor makers do not seem to recognise that the market is not other new' gen makers - but the thousands of old gens sitting on bow rollers. looking at a magazine front page (or any page inside) - its all Delta and CQR et al.

I see the purchasers of these yachts, with old gen anchors supplied as standard, looking slightly bemused when advised they need replace the old gen anchor with a new gen model (with twice the holding capacity) but really ought to replace that 30kg Delta with a 45kg (new gen whatever).

If people upwind of me had new gen anchors, to directly replace (weight for weight) their current models - I'd be more than happy (and the new gen anchor makers would laugh all the way to the bank).
JonJo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2013, 18:38   #193
cruiser

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Pittwater, Sydney
Boat: Lightwave, Catamaran, 11.5m (38')
Posts: 1,000
Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bash View Post
Not necessarily better, just there for a different purpose.

Working anchor: Rocna 25 kg
Kedge: Guardian G-37 (Made by Fortress)
Storm anchor: Fortress Fx-55
Your Kedge and Storm anchors are huge, surface area!!! I'm not knocking your choice, we carry an FX 37 but yours, combined, are real monsters. Do you carry them assembled or as a kit?
JonJo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2013, 18:41   #194
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,945
Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

Quote:
If people upwind of me had new gen anchors, to directly replace (weight for weight) their current models - I'd be more than happy (and the new gen anchor makers would laugh all the way to the bank).
A fair number of boats can't fit the new-gen anchors with rollbars and such, and they are quite a bit physically bigger, even at a similar weight. Also, there is huge intertia in the boat industry. Some company may have "upgraded" from a CQR to a Delta in recent memory of the people in charge, and they really don't want to spend twice as much money on an anchor when nobody is complaining and they are still selling boats,. I doubt very many new boat sales are lost because of the anchor supplied, if one is supplied. And, like I have said before, most people do not drag and do not have issues with the "old generation." Plus, you have to keep in mind that 99% of the market are weekenders at best, even if they are buying a big boat. They very rarely anchor anywhere that is exposed, or they pick up a mooring or dock the boat. Those of us who anchor all the time, even in iffy locations, are only a tiny portion of boaters, and the percentage of us anchorers that are buying these new boats is ridiculously small. And, the real kicker is that if someone is experienced and buying a new boat they will also be highly opinionated and chances are very good that they will want a particular anchor, and the manufacturer will be happy to oblige once your check for $500,000 has cleared.
__________________
Kettlewell Cruising
Kettlewell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2013, 18:46   #195
Registered User
 
Nicholson58's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Caribbean live aboard
Boat: Camper & Nicholson58 Ketch - ROXY Traverse City, Michigan No.668283
Posts: 5,168
Images: 84
Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

Quote:
Originally Posted by hpeer View Post
Nick58,

Although I have never used them onboard I carry a pair of these blocks That I might be able to use as turning blocks.


Sherman + Reilly - XS-100B Blocks

Say you have the port anchor out on 100' of chain. You would catch off the block at the mast, put a timber hitch on the chain, and use the drum to take up the line. The line would go from the drum, through the block, to the chain. Then you could get maybe 40' or so of chain at a snatch.

Hope to never find out.

Could be useful for other stuff as well. Can be found on ebay at times.
Great big giant snatch block. I have two given to me by linemen. the sheave is large enough to pass chain. I used them for years doing tree service in my spare time for extra $$$.
Nicholson58 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Want To Buy: Manson Supreme 60 lb tamicatana Classifieds Archive 1 25-07-2012 10:08
Spade Anchor Report Dockhead Anchoring & Mooring 13 04-06-2012 07:23
Want To Buy: WTB: 35lbs Manson Supreme or Rocna callmecrazy Classifieds Archive 0 05-02-2012 10:22
Anchor Surface Area Comparison - Manson Supreme vs CQR Maine Sail Anchoring & Mooring 96 07-09-2011 09:53
Just Ordered a New Manson Supreme ! foggysail Anchoring & Mooring 26 05-09-2011 08:42

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:43.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.