Manson Supreme in Weed

[Kettlewell]

Another thing is there is weed, and then there is WEED! A lot of harbors have some grass, but if you fish around a bit you can often find a spot open enough to allow the anchor to penetrate to better holding ground. And, then there are some bottoms where you can't find the bottom even with dive gear on--it is just a mat of thick weed that the anchor lies on top of when you drop it. In those type of bottoms I think about the only thing that has a hope of penetrating is something like a heavy fisherman or Luke anchor.

[Bash]

Originally Posted by Kettlewell

I wrote this on another forum too. I still think it somewhat humorous, in a black sort of way, that people feel it is necessary to utilize a new generation anchor that is not just one size bigger, but in some cases up to twice or more the weight recommended in order to get adequate holding power. When back in the day that same boat would probably have been anchoring with something like a 35 lb. Danforth on mostly rope rode with six feet of chain, with another Danforth put out if a major wind shift was expected. Of course this was prior to widespread use of electric or even manual windlasses, and everything needed to be pulled in by hand so weight was more important. This is progress in anchor design?

This is not necessarily the case. For a working anchor I use the Rocna that is specked by for my size boat, and have never yet dragged. I generally anchor around 75 nights per year, and have used this anchor on this boat for six years. I tend not to anchor in gales or storms, but I carry a different storm anchor for that eventuality. Regardless, I've anchored on the Rocna specified for my boat's length/displacement and have not dragged once in more than 400 nights on the hook.

There was a time, not long ago, when cruisers expected to drag a certain percentage of their time on the hook. This has changed in recent years, and has lead some folks to migrate toward heavier anchors. And more and more of us use all-chain rodes at the same time.. However, I don't see this as a result of switching to new generation anchors. It's just that we want to sleep better at night. Twenty years ago, cruisers didn't expect to be able to sleep as well on the hook.

[Nicholson58]

Originally Posted by hpeer

I would think that a sailboat could rig their main winch to haul an anchor. I know I have thought seriously about how to do it.

We have a horizontal windlass, gypsie on one side, capstan on the other. Never can figure out how that is supposed to work. I figure I would run the rope rode to a turning block at the mast and then back to the capstan in order to get a good angle.

What is harder is to figure out how to use the gypsie for the wrong side anchor if I have chain out. The angle across to the gypsie is just too tight.

I have a similar set-up with a Mazwell H-3000. Wildcat starboard and rope gypsy port. My primary anchor is Rocna 121# with 220 ft chain 7/16 BBB. My secondary anchor is on port on 600 feet of nylon. Secondary is 54 # Bruce. I can bring in the secondary on the rope gypsy and finish the lift by hand or wrap the 40 feet of chain on the gypsy. I would not consider crossing. The chain on the primary drops through a hawse pipe to the chain locker. The rope on the secondary has to be sowed by hand in the windlass locker on lugs made to hold it.

[Kenomac]

I was just as confident in our oversized Rocna until the night I dragged anchor. Unknown to me at the time, I had anchored just outside my normal spot which had a muddy bottom where there was instead a hard grassy bottom. I had set the 60 pound anchor with all chain rode for the 45ft Hunter, and had been secure all day in a 20 knot wind... until the wind changed to onshore with a 180 degree shift and the Santa Anas began gusting up to 50 knots. The Rocna had trouble resetting itself in the grass and I began a very slow drag towards an oil island off Long beach, CA. When another boat went up onto the rocks, I decided it was time to pull up the anchor and reset it a little further out; it didn't come up with the characteristic bug hunk of mud attached. After anchoring back in the mud, then I was OK.

The Rocna will drag in the right conditions; I think the roll bar sometimes prevents it from digging into the bottom deep enough. When I upgrade, or rather buy a new primary anchor for the Oyster, it will be an Ultra anchor without the roll bar.

[hpeer]

Nick58,

Although I have never used them onboard I carry a pair of these blocks That I might be able to use as turning blocks.


Sherman + Reilly - XS-100B Blocks

Say you have the port anchor out on 100' of chain. You would catch off the block at the mast, put a timber hitch on the chain, and use the drum to take up the line. The line would go from the drum, through the block, to the chain. Then you could get maybe 40' or so of chain at a snatch.

Hope to never find out.

Could be useful for other stuff as well. Can be found on ebay at times.

[Mantus Anchors]

Originally Posted by Kettlewell

Another thing is there is weed, and then there is WEED! A lot of harbors have some grass, but if you fish around a bit you can often find a spot open enough to allow the anchor to penetrate to better holding ground. And, then there are some bottoms where you can't find the bottom even with dive gear on--it is just a mat of thick weed that the anchor lies on top of when you drop it. In those type of bottoms I think about the only thing that has a hope of penetrating is something like a heavy fisherman or Luke anchor.

Have you had a chance to try your Mantus there?
Greg

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Bash

This is not necessarily the case. For a working anchor I use the Rocna that is specked by for my size boat, and have never yet dragged. I generally anchor around 75 nights per year, and have used this anchor on this boat for six years. I tend not to anchor in gales or storms, but I carry a different storm anchor for that eventuality. Regardless, I've anchored on the Rocna specified for my boat's length/displacement and have not dragged once in more than 400 nights on the hook.

There was a time, not long ago, when cruisers expected to drag a certain percentage of their time on the hook. This has changed in recent years, and has lead some folks to migrate toward heavier anchors. And more and more of us use all-chain rodes at the same time.. However, I don't see this as a result of switching to new generation anchors. It's just that we want to sleep better at night. Twenty years ago, cruisers didn't expect to be able to sleep as well on the hook.

I think there's a lot to that. My own background with anchoring is about a decade of cruising with a CQR, considered state of the art at the time. Anchoring out was always a nerve-wracking adventure. When I started upgrading ground tackle, I wanted to leave those bad memories as far behind as possible, so I wanted bigger as well as better, to really nail the problem from two directions.

And I'm really glad I did. I think many cruisers have the same approach - they want to reduce the risks as much as possible, in every way possible. I think it's entirely reasonable to use the biggest anchor you can handle, of the best design you can find.

[Teeto]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

I was just as confident in our oversized Rocna until the night I dragged anchor. Unknown to me at the time, I had anchored just outside my normal spot which had a muddy bottom where there was instead a hard grassy bottom. I had set the 60 pound anchor with all chain rode for the 45ft Hunter, and had been secure all day in a 20 knot wind... until the wind changed to onshore with a 180 degree shift and the Santa Anas began gusting up to 50 knots. The Rocna had trouble resetting itself in the grass and I began a very slow drag towards an oil island off Long beach, CA. When another boat went up onto the rocks, I decided it was time to pull up the anchor and reset it a little further out; it didn't come up with the characteristic bug hunk of mud attached. After anchoring back in the mud, then I was OK.

The Rocna will drag in the right conditions; I think the roll bar sometimes prevents it from digging into the bottom deep enough. When I upgrade, or rather buy a new primary anchor for the Oyster, it will be an Ultra anchor without the roll bar.

Your tale has made me feel a bit anxious about our 60lb MS. I don't like having to look for the less weedy spots, especially after dark. Sometimes there is no choice here.

[cfarrar]

I don't see the point of avoiding an anchor that's 10# heavier out of fear that my windlass might break. I went from a 45# anchor to a 55# anchor, so with 5/16# chain, anchoring in 50 ft of water, I need to pull up about 110# of steel (less a little bit due to water displacement). Whether it's 100# or 110# makes little difference to me. If the motor breaks I'll use a winch handle. If the windlass seizes I can throw a hitch on the chain and use a winch. I spent 10 days with a broken windlass on a 50 ft boat, 75# anchor and 3/8" chain, and it was doable. Also, if I'm worried about 10# on the bow I can carry 9 feet less chain. Of course, I'm not talking about going up three anchor sizes. That would be a different story: probably bigger chain, windlass, etc.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Teeto

Your tale has made me feel a bit anxious about our 60lb MS. I don't like having to look for the less weedy spots, especially after dark. Sometimes there is no choice here.

Any anchor will drag in the right circumstances, but with a good anchor like any of the new ones, and with good technique [edit - and of course a reasonable bottom!], I think the risk is small.

It's worth saying that it's easy to be lazy with a new gen anchor since they bite quickly. It's tempting just to call it a day, but you still have to work the anchor into the seabed, and you still have to back down hard to be sure. It takes some time and effort, but it will reveal if you're in a dodgy, weedy patch where your anchor might not hold. I always finish the whole ritual with two full minutes of 3800 rpms in reverse, which also blows the carbon out of the turbo. Your anchor must hold a sustained full power pull, or it's not set.

[Mantus Anchors]

Originally Posted by Teeto

Your tale has made me feel a bit anxious about our 60lb MS. I don't like having to look for the less weedy spots, especially after dark. Sometimes there is no choice here.

Regardless what anchor you choose, the bottom decides everything, when we tested our 25 lb prototype in the hard bottoms we had values over 5000 lbs and the anchor held, in the worst conditions we found the numbers were 1200 lbs... and that's on an anchor that was confirmed to be well set.... If you through in a partial set... you are in trouble..
So risk is part of the game, to mitigate the risk go big, your Manson is a good anchor, use local knowledge, always back up on the anchor... if in doubt put the second anchor out... We never had a failed set with Mantus but I am sure its just the matter of time....

[stillbuilding]

Well, an interesting discussion. Does anyone actually check the bottom type. Most charts out of date in many spots I am sure. Anyone using a allowed lead line?!

[Mantus Anchors]

I can't comment on the Sarca Excel bc we haven't played with it, but Manson Supreme has better setting ability than Mantus Boss.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by stillbuilding

Well, an interesting discussion. Does anyone actually check the bottom type. Most charts out of date in many spots I am sure. Anyone using a allowed lead line?!

Of course you do -- it's a fundamental part of anchoring to figure out what kind of bottom you're dealing with. First of all, it's marked on charts, and in the areas I sail, these markings are quite accurate. Avoid "R" for rocks.

Then, you can usually tell by the way the anchor goes in. Yet another big advantage of new type anchors is you can really feel the anchor going into the seabed, and you can immediately feel it if it does not go in solidly.

At the risk of repeating myself: You can't just leave it at that, just because you feel the initial jerk of the anchor connecting. You've got to work the anchor in after that with a gentle pull gradually increasing, with someone standing at the bow with a foot on the chain to feel if the anchor starts to drag.

[JonJo]

Originally Posted by Mantus Anchors

I can't comment on the Sarca Excel bc we haven't played with it, but Manson Supreme has better setting ability than Mantus Boss.

What's this Mantus Boss, new style?