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Old 01-01-2013, 13:46   #136
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I guess that's the whole point of this thread, which seems to have become much more generalised. Is a heavier anchor necessary in WEED?
We shall continue our researches on same with our 60lb MS.
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Old 01-01-2013, 14:51   #137
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Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

Anyone and or all,

Conjure up a test that demonstrates that for a given size yacht the bigger anchor is better than the smaller one. Not that they both 'work' but that the bigger one is demonstrably better. I'd like the test to be commercially sensible (so no suggestions of chartering a massive work boat) and to encompass both a straight line pull, a reset at 90 and 180 degrees. The test needs to be done in a definable and different seabeds.

For an individual to say bigger is better (or not) based on personal experiance is very difficult to judge - we never anchor in the same place and have the same conditions in order to let us confirm. We have had no problem with out smaller anchor - but that is not to say one day our misplaced confidence is to be shown up. But equally the 'big is better' camp provide no non-subjective justification for their philosophy.

In theory the bigger one is capable of more holding power but as I never reach the limit of holding power of my smaller one, that Noelex agrees will set more quickly, set more deeply and more quickly than a bigger one, I'm waiting to see the advantages of the bigger one. Kettlewell's comments on windlasses (burning out) is valid and more so for concave anchors that can have a dramatic weight increase when lifting a fluke sized piece of seabed.

A smaller anchor will ultimately not set as deeply as a bigger one but at a difference of say 20kg to 33kg both have the ability (in theory) to produce more holding capacity than would ever be needed by the correctly sized yacht. So a 5kg anchor will not set deeply enough to anchor a 40' in a 40 knot wind.

It might be the 'big is better' camp is correct for concave anchors as the clod will not be so compacted for a larger size (cf a smaller one for the same sized yacht) and this, clod, washes out more easily. It is noticeable that the 'big is better' camp are largely, wholly?, populated by Rocna and Supreme owners - but then, if not in OZ/NZ they do not have the advantage of easy choice of SHHP convex anchors, possible but not easy.

But it does seem very contradictory that someone who has got by with, say, a 20kg Bruce or Delta is then encouraged to go off and buy a 33kg Rocna or Supreme on the basis of subjective experiences. Of course he'll swear by the Rocna or Supreme - but the extra he paid (and to me it is not insignificant) I'd invest in a decent second anchor (if the Bruce was not good enough and demanded replacment then its not good enough as a back-up (as the back-up might need to become the main anchor)) invest in decent snubbers, more chain for the 2nd anchor etc.

So a debate about a 'real' test might be valuable?
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Old 01-01-2013, 15:02   #138
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Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

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Originally Posted by Kettlewell View Post
This is actually a serious issue once you leave the world of boatyards, marine stores, and overnight shipping. When we were down in the San Blas and Cartagena a lot of people were repairing burnt out or broken electric windlasses and having a tough time getting parts. I would guess that windlasses were the #1 repair item after refrigeration. We met one older couple on a big trawler who were really in trouble because they just couldn't handle manually their 125 lb (I think) main anchor, their windlass was gone, and they were trying to anchor in the San Blas (where some of the anchorages are 40-50 feet deep) with their spare Fortress anchors and such. The nearest possible repairs were over 200 miles away in Panama, and that's where they were headed when we last saw them. A big gang of cruisers went board their boat to manually haul up their main anchor one last time before they headed off on a non-stop (hopefully) overnight trip to Shelter Bay.

Very good point on anchor winches. I have always been of the opinion that good anchor kit is among if not possibly the most important safety gear on a vessel and not something to shortcut.

On that basis both oversize/good quality anchor and winch are important particullary for out of the way and much of Pacific I would consider more out of way than the Carribean. I have seen several vessels with two winches that cruise out of way areas.

Jon Jo is the first I have seen to make the case for at times a smaller anchor. Knowing of his experience with actual anchor testing contributing to several magazine tests with anchors; he has experience actually testing as well as crusing by comparison a wider range than those of us with experience just using cruising.

At present I will stay with the oversize group.
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Old 01-01-2013, 16:26   #139
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Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

Re: Testing,

I ask for ideas on a test in order that a test regime might have some real support. The 'big is better' or 'small, or USL code, is more than adequate' groups are all fairly convinced of the correctness of their positions - consqeuntly the differences must be 'real' or people would not be so entrenched and if real then they must be measurably different.

So how to measure?

If its impossible to measure then I might consider the differences are in the mind? But I have not given this last comment to much thought.
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Old 01-01-2013, 16:32   #140
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Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

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Because we only really upgrade our anchors to sleep better.
Don, I disagree. I'd sleep fine (and have) with a substandard anchor or even an anchor that won't set well. We have a Vesper AIS Watchmate that I trust to wake me if we are dragging.

What I can't do is leave the boat. A newer/larger/better anchor will allow me to actually go someplace where I don't have a direct line of sight view of the boat.

Anchoring in weeds is a bitch. If the weed patches are big clumps, often the anchor tip just sticks in the side of a clump, where a wind change will pull it out quickly. If the weed is thick, and you pull back hard, the anchor will just pull up a ball of weeds. The concave anchors with roll bars seem to hold that ball in perfect shape.
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Old 01-01-2013, 16:37   #141
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Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

A huge part of the difference is how the anchor is set at first. I have anchored numerous times in the exact same harbor many have cited on here and other places as having terrible holding, and they couldn't get their CQR or other anchor to set, etc. etc. Rode out numerous gales in that harbor and a hurricane, using even old horrible anchors like CQRs and Danforths, all appropriately sized but not hugely overkill. I've also been in blows that were so severe and unexpected that every single boat dragged, including me, until I dropped over a second anchor. Those that tried to stay on one dragged. So, a huge amount depends on how you utilize the anchor, not just its design.
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Old 01-01-2013, 16:44   #142
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Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

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What I can't do is leave the boat.
How true! That is the real test of whether or not you trust your anchor. I find I wake up anyway when the wind shifts or picks up or if there is anything unusual. If for some reason it is a really iffy anchorage I might get up every hour or two to check on things. But, in my experience anchors rarely let go all of a sudden unless there is some dramatic change in wind direction and speed.
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Old 01-01-2013, 16:50   #143
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Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

I accept that! I like to be able to sleep well on anchor but have an anchor alarm (that didn't wake me up once when I set too small for the wind shift). But you are right that it is even more important that you can leave you boat and go ashore with the feeling that the boat will still be then when you come back!!!
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Old 01-01-2013, 17:02   #144
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Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

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AAHHhhhh CUTYHUNK! I know it well.......and yes, ell grass prevails!


My Manson has held every place it was dropped using a scope 5-6. One night inside Cutty harbor last summer a front came through. The rain was horizontal, couild not see outside at all. My guess is the wind was in excess of 50K. I was afraid we were slipping because of the wind. I check my GPS which I always leave on (just dim the screen to conserve power). The boat had made almost a perfect circle on the GPS display.

Foggy
I'm right there with you on the GPS but we use the Watchmate 850 AIS. Set to anchor watch it runs about 3 watts. If you expand the picture you see a swarm of spots showing where we were all night long.

We added a 121# Rocna for next season. It should poke through weed.
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Old 01-01-2013, 17:22   #145
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Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

Many anchors work well, even some 'old generation' models in the ideal substrate - its the iffy ones, like a very hard seabed or weed (sorry Teeto if the thread keeps drifting) that can be a major issue. But we, like Kettlewell - have been in anchorages supposedly and reportedly hard and difficult to anchor in - but cannot understand the problem. Many anchorage reports are based on evidence and experiance from more than 20 years ago when the choice was CQR, Bruce or Danforth and in Australia some of our anchorage descriptions (cruising guides) look to have been taken, word for word, from Admiralty Pilots - and that data can be 150 years old!

Most anchor tests, the West Marine one published in 2006 and the 2 x Voile et Voieurs tests etc were conducted in weed free seabeds. We could do with a bit more testing in weed, the absence of decent information on which prompted this thread.

On anchor alarms - we found standard alarms pretty useless, very unobtrusive (and worse if most of your kit is at the helm and your berth is up in the forepeak). Modern GPS chartplotters (and the Vesper Watchmate) have a terminal to fit an exterior alarm. We have added a piezo electric alarm to our GPS/chartplotter (we only hanker after the Vesper Watchmate), cost a few dollars, maybe $6 (Jaycar if you are in Oz) which, when it goes off (actually never heard it in anger) increases my heart beat no end. Easy to wire in, takes a few minutes.
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Old 01-01-2013, 17:23   #146
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Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

Often an electronic anchor watch device won't do you much good in Cuttyhunk as you are either 10 feet from another boat or going aground. By the time it goes off you'll be in trouble.
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Old 01-01-2013, 17:41   #147
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Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

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Often an electronic anchor watch device won't do you much good in Cuttyhunk as you are either 10 feet from another boat or going aground. By the time it goes off you'll be in trouble.

There are ways of course to minimize that. You can just not set the anchor point when you drop it but set it when you settle into your spot. Then set the alarm circle to 10 meters. Anchoring 10 feet from a lee shore, well, that is courting disaster.

In the Med, almost everyone anchors with their fenders deployed. I laughed about that for the first month. By the end of the summer we didn't bother to put the fenders away, we just pulled them over the lifelines. When in Rome.

One point on anchor alarms is that they are only good if you can hear them. I would highly recommend putting in a radio shack buzzer and potentiometer to really boost the sound level when you move.
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Old 01-01-2013, 17:52   #148
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Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

Outside of Sydney, Brisbane etc and south of Sydney we are lucky to see more than 2 or 3 yachts, in Tasmania it is quite possible to go for days without seeing anyone (and on the west coast, not even a house). In the Whitsundays it is busy (which is one reason we do not go there anymore - for us, ruined by its own success). In the Whitsundays when asked about proximity - my comment was - if you can ask me if you are too close without shouting, you are (far) too close. We spent a lot of our time moving as far away from bareboat charter yachts as possible, they were told, set the anchor so the chain is at 45 degrees. If it holds you are fine!

Now that we have given up the mecca of the North, of Oz, fenders are for re-fuelling.
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Old 01-01-2013, 18:33   #149
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Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

I would think that a sailboat could rig their main winch to haul an anchor. I know I have thought seriously about how to do it.

We have a horizontal windlass, gypsie on one side, capstan on the other. Never can figure out how that is supposed to work. I figure I would run the rope rode to a turning block at the mast and then back to the capstan in order to get a good angle.

What is harder is to figure out how to use the gypsie for the wrong side anchor if I have chain out. The angle across to the gypsie is just too tight.
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Old 01-01-2013, 18:34   #150
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Re: Manson Supreme in Weed

We learned in engineering classes in a galaxy far away a long time ago that mechanics and physics often do not scale directly. That is, twice as big/heavy/long/wide etc does not mean twice as strong or whatever. The example we all know is the waterline proportionality to hull speed varies by the cubic function. Some size modeling will work out to a logarithmic scale. Trying ot compare anchors of different size,mass, area, etc in variable bottom will get really compllicated. Part of the formula often ignored is the mass of the boat and the wave train pounding against the anchor as well as hull area and wind. My 121# Rocna is probably not twice as resistant to drag as one half its weight but I can't tell you if its way more or surprisingly less. The weed issue really complicates this. If the anchor can break through the root mass then holding is probably similar to the base below the weeds with weeds removed. If the anchor hangs in the weeds, the holding will be highly dependant on the strength of the root mass.
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