It's True! The Mantus 65-lb. hooks first time, everytime.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by Cotemar

This thread was started by windswepttom (The OP=original post) who had a great experience with his new Mantus anchor.

Its a thread, a discussion, not a closed dichotomy didactic.

This thread has now turned to an AR team against Mantus Anchors.

I am not against Mantus, so you can withdraw that any time you like. I just wanted two questions answered, Why are you changing the metal (so far the answer is - because of netters) and do you need the roll bar - yes or no (so far the answer is equivocal)

For anyone following this anchor conundrum this may clarify the AR team.

That very inappropriate to assign me to a team - are you suggesting that I am somehow involved in a conspiracy?

JonJo= writes anchor reviews giving AR anchors top ratings and support

Maybe be cause all his independent testing is showing him something? For the record, I have met Jon once for 5 minutes at a boat show.

Congo= CEO of AR Australia

Yeah he is probably biased! I first started taking notice of Rex when he was on the Inventors program in Australia, I next started taking notice after I experienced the original Super Sarca on a number of work boats (water police and the like) that I worked on.

Factor has and AR excel anchor and defends them like no other

That would be me. I also own a Fortress anchor. And it is worth every cent of the exorbitant price I paid, because I know it is reliable. I don't defend Sarca or Fortress like no other but I do challenge ill informed statements like - the Excel is a Delta knock off, it isn't and you should stop saying that it is - that is morally bereft behaviour. It is no more a Delta knock off that the Fortress is a Danforth knock off.

Delfin does not have an AR excel anchor, but thinks they are the best

Wouldnt know Delfin if I fell over him. So I am not sure how I can be on the same team as him.

Downunder has and AR excel anchor and defends them like no other

Met him once at a boat show, would struggle to recognise him again. Don't know what anchor or boat he owns.

This AR team keeps repeating their questions on this thread and then another one will come in and re-affirm what they feel should be the answer.

I would have thought
1. Why are you changing the metal if the current metal is good enough and
2. Do you need the roll bar - yes or no

were two reasonable and sane questions that should be able to be answered?

Look I think you are well over the mark with your implication that there is somehow a conspiracy against mantus, I just want two simple questions answered. Thats all. Personal attacks don't really help do they?

PS I stripped all the change of fonts and colours when quoting you cause in rational argument it is the steak that matters - not the sizzle.

PPS and attention CONGO - My rates for being on your team are $100 per hour plus GST, I will forward bank details soon. And if any of the other team members are getting more than me - i will get cranky and start acting up like a second hand Victa

[congo]

Hi Greg,

Very impressive stuff, I'am in transit at the moment so cannot fully respond. As far as not been very nice get your own manners back in order and dry your eyes, this is the real world , I have copped crap since i have started so you are not on your own.

By all means I have no problem with you testing the Sarca shank providing the following.

The anchor has to be the same weight you have being testing
It is imperative that you fully understand the unique and complex concept of the Sarca anchor. One small part of its concept is the D shackle is not captive, so sideways load in most cases will be at the opposite end of the shank when most bending loads are applied, no, it does not trip the anchor out and will reset instantly if for some reason it did.

Summary, the shank in its overall length is very strong in a lateral pull, further in a sideways pull it is also very strong as the sliding D shackle reduces leverage. If you don't understand this I will PM you to paint a clearer picture. Further , when you put this in perspective over 20 years on the market and around 3500 Sarca anchors per year sarca bent shanks
are few and far between,a benefit of the sliding shackle.

Re your removable roll-bar- there is no way you will see me go to a removable rollbar as I have stated many times it is a down right dangerous statement to make. However that is your decision , the only problem I see it will be somebody else's neck before yours. Further we don't need to as the Excel will fill the void.
Regards
Rex

[noelex 77]

Rex
I always understood you recommended blocking off the slot with a bolt when anchoring overnight. ( I do have some reservations about the security of even this approach)

Are you suggesting when anchoring overnight in conditions where the direction of pull may change significantly that attaching the anchor so the shackle is free to slide up the shank to the trip point is wise, or even satisfactory?

[JonJo]

D.Taylor

I've just come in and had a quick glance but your post seems erudite and deserving of more attention than I am able to give it at mid-night.

So I'm not being rude in passing minimal comment but am simply acknowledging 'receipt' (I've had a quick look!) and think your effort deserves a more reasoned reply. I will come back to you.

I have noted Greg's comment on roll bar removal and if I understand correctly then the roll bar removal is focussed or restricted to kayakers, run-about fishermen but not larger vessels such as, say, 35' sailing yachts or larger who might be spending a night at anchor in a tidal area or likely to enjoy a windshift (causing the anchor to possibly sommersault and need to re-set of its own accord).

It would be nice to clarify this issue - as we can then focus solely on the shank strengths.

I commend your choice and initial exploration of a good cross section of anchor design but will be unable to pass comment on some as we simply do not see them here (in Oz). I would equally be unable to comment on whatever steels they might be made of as 'mild steel' and 'HT steels', can cover quite a range and unless the manufacturer specifically defines the steel, or it is measured, it would be difficult to pass comment. I am of course hoping your analysis will extend to Rocna and/or Supreme and/or Excel.

Best wishes,

Jonathan

[congo]

Noelex
You never cease to amaze me, the only time I gave the answer for a lock of bolt in the trip release was in response to Craig Smiths slander on your forum stating that the trip release was dangerous and that the anchor could drag rearward.
Take note Greg - your not the only one put in the spot light, only difference here you have cotemar to dry your eyes.

Now, Noelex you backed Craigs theory ,this is why it is still on your mind and my answer at the time was well if it worries you all that much you can lock of the rail with a bolt! Do we recommend it? No, it is not needed, further Jonathon had a similar query rather than what I had to go through with you and Craig I gave Jonathon the same answer and purpose wise he was satisfied with the result.

Even though the sarca has being trialled , tested many times by individuals and the National Marine Safety Committee they could never make the sarca trip and not reset because of the sliding shackle. As a result it was certified with Super High Holding Power, but if further scare mongering persists the lock of bolt will be my answer, but no , and I state again it doesn't need it.

Regards
Rex

[Fortress]

Greg, interesting theoretical chart. Where the Fortress FX-23 is listed, please include the weight of this anchor model.

I think that viewers will be interested to see that it only weighs 15 lbs (about 16 lbs with the Mud Palms installed) and it is being compared with a few anchors that are 3x heavier.

Thanks,
Brian

[noelex 77]

Rex, you will have to put me down for slander as well, because I don't believe the slot is safe to use when anchoring overnight in conditions where there is a possibility of a significant change in the direction of pull.

However, I don't see how it makes any difference to the force analysis. If the load is at 90 degrees (the point where the shank is most likely to bend) there is no component of the force to pull the shackle to the other end.

I suspect we don't need computerised 3D analysis (but it is a very cool tool ) to agree on that.

[Cotemar]

My personal belief from a cruisers stand point is that a removable roll bar should remain in place on the anchor if you plan on leaving the boat.

The Mantus anchor is the only design out there that allows you the freedom of choice, it’s just that you have to be prudent with that decision and conditions at hand.

If you’re fishing or kayaking on your boat, you can take appropriate action should things go wrong.

[Stevens 47]

Originally Posted by s/v Beth

Well cotemar may have insulted many, the experts on this thread have shown their true colors. To try to shame a moderator into accepting your bulling is a new low. They work their asses off to make this forum civil. Civil enough to you to give your opinion again and again.
OK we know how you feel.
But a few of us are considering the Mantus seriously.
And I for one would ask you politely : if you have a mantus I want to hear about your experiences with it.
If you don't have a mantus- please go start your own thread.
I think that is what the op was trying to do, and I happen to think that's a good idea.

1+

[colemj]

A few comments about owning a roll bar anchor (Rocna) and anchoring almost every night for the past 6 years in widely varying conditions and bottoms:

It will bury past the roll bar. I see this often - no anchor at all and several feet of chain going straight into the substrate. But the point of any anchor is to bury deep enough to hold the boat in the conditions experienced. Many times I have seen our anchor only partway buried and worried. But strong winds have come through and the anchor never moves or buries any deeper.

Thick, long weeds are the one area I think roll bar anchors are weak. However, any strengths in this bottom from other designs are just minimal security because you never know how deep the roots go or how loose the bottom is because of them. Our Rocna may give up at 20kts in these bottoms while an AR Excel may last to 25 or 30kts, but I wouldn't feel anymore comfortable anchored there with an Excel. BTW, the single instance our Rocna failed us was in kelp growing to the surface in mangrove mud, and even there it took a 50kt squall to break us out. The scary thing is there was no hope for resetting because we brought up a 100lb weedball on the anchor. A convex design like the Excel may have shed that.

I have never seen our anchor pull out during acute 180* wind shifts. Every single time, it simply rotates in place. I have watched this underwater. It banks a bit to its side and rotates around without moving an inch. It also usually corkscrews further in when doing so. We experienced two water spouts go between us and another anchored boat last year. Both times 50-60kt winds immediately twirled us around and snatched us up hard on the opposite side of the anchor. Again, the anchor simply rotated into the new position and never moved out of its original set.

So I think the occurrence of a roll bar anchor pulling out with wind shifts and needing to rely on the roll bar for resetting is rare.

Having said that, I would NEVER remove the roll bar from our anchor or use a roll bar anchor without the bar. Here, I disagree strongly with Mantus's suggestion to use their anchor in this manner. Watching our anchor set many times, it is obvious that the anchor is equally stable upside down as it is right side up. And there is no way it will set upside down. Even if the chance of pulling out of the bottom is as rare as I think it is, it can occur. In addition, I want to be 100% assured of a proper setting attitude if I need to deploy the anchor in an emergency.

I am on the fence regarding shaft strength. I certainly do not ever want the shaft bending in normal or storm anchoring conditions where a wind shift of any type will cause the boat to pull 90* or 180* to the shank. No matter how hard it pulls. I expect the anchor will either appropriately rotate to adjust or be buried so deeply that the substrate itself is providing strength to the shank.

In cases where the anchor is caught fast on rock and the shank bends because the punter is hauling the bow under with the windlass - well, bendable shanks are OK with me there, and I chalk that up to circumstances and bad luck. I don't think any manufacturer should be expected to provide a shank that doesn't bend in this case. I don't even think it should be warrantied for this.

cotemar, I remember you owned a Mantus and remember they either gave it to you free or for a significantly reduced cost that was not available to others. You have been a bit shrill about going after perceived collusions, so for honesty please remind us of your relationship with Mantus. I apologize in advance if my memory is incorrect here.

And for my transparency, we own a Rocna, Spade and Fortress, and I have had email conversations publicly and privately with Craig, Alain, and Brian, but have no connections with any of those companies and have received no discounts or similar from them (although Brian did ship me free mud palms for our Fortress).

Mark

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

However, I don't see how it makes any difference to the force analysis. If the load is at 90 degrees (the point where the shank is most likely to bend) there is no component of the force to pull the shackle to the other end.

I think I understand his point -- I think he means that it would be rare for the force to be exactly 90 degrees, so the shackle will slide up in many cases and reduce the leverage, protecting the anchor shank.

I guess it wouldn't help you if the force were being applied at 80 degree, for example, but in many cases it would help.

It seems plausible to me and it would be interesting to see some objective research about how it works.

I wonder if much data has been accumulated about people using the Manson Supreme with its similar "rock slot". It's not obvious to me that the shackle sliding around in the slot would trip out the anchor -- I have only ever heard that from Craig Smith, and based only on his speculation. In moderate conditions, the pull will be exerted parallel to the seabed as the chain will be on the bottom, so a reversal of force would seem to pull the anchor around in any case.

[Delfin]

Originally Posted by s/v Beth

They work their asses off to make this forum civil. Civil enough to you to give your opinion again and again.

A thankless job, no doubt.

Originally Posted by s/v Beth

But a few of us are considering the Mantus seriously.

Well of course you are. Anyone who is going to tear a building material at what must be significant expense out of their boat that people build entire homes out of and have for centuries on the basis that it is harmful would naturally conclude that a weaker anchor is a better and safer anchor...

My advice to you remains the same. Buy a Mantus if you like when they change their shank materials that their own calculations show makes it competitive to other anchors, then you can avoid the irritation of owning an anchor that someone else has to gall to ask a few harmless questions about. Questions that keep getting asked, by the way, because the answers keep not being provided.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by colemj

A few comments about owning a roll bar anchor (Rocna) and anchoring almost every night for the past 6 years in widely varying conditions and bottoms:

It will bury past the roll bar. I see this often - no anchor at all and several feet of chain going straight into the substrate. But the point of any anchor is to bury deep enough to hold the boat in the conditions experienced. Many times I have seen our anchor only partway buried and worried. But strong winds have come through and the anchor never moves or buries any deeper.

Thick, long weeds are the one area I think roll bar anchors are weak. However, any strengths in this bottom from other designs are just minimal security because you never know how deep the roots go or how loose the bottom is because of them. Our Rocna may give up at 20kts in these bottoms while an AR Excel may last to 25 or 30kts, but I wouldn't feel anymore comfortable anchored there with an Excel. BTW, the single instance our Rocna failed us was in kelp growing to the surface in mangrove mud, and even there it took a 50kt squall to break us out. The scary thing is there was no hope for resetting because we brought up a 100lb weedball on the anchor. A convex design like the Excel may have shed that.

I have never seen our anchor pull out during acute 180* wind shifts. Every single time, it simply rotates in place. I have watched this underwater. It banks a bit to its side and rotates around without moving an inch. It also usually corkscrews further in when doing so. We experienced two water spouts go between us and another anchored boat last year. Both times 50-60kt winds immediately twirled us around and snatched us up hard on the opposite side of the anchor. Again, the anchor simply rotated into the new position and never moved out of its original set.

So I think the occurrence of a roll bar anchor pulling out with wind shifts and needing to rely on the roll bar for resetting is rare.

Having said that, I would NEVER remove the roll bar from our anchor or use a roll bar anchor without the bar. Here, I disagree strongly with Mantus's suggestion to use their anchor in this manner. Watching our anchor set many times, it is obvious that the anchor is equally stable upside down as it is right side up. And there is no way it will set upside down. Even if the chance of pulling out of the bottom is as rare as I think it is, it can occur. In addition, I want to be 100% assured of a proper setting attitude if I need to deploy the anchor in an emergency.

I am on the fence regarding shaft strength. I certainly do not ever want the shaft bending in normal or storm anchoring conditions where a wind shift of any type will cause the boat to pull 90* or 180* to the shank. No matter how hard it pulls. I expect the anchor will either appropriately rotate to adjust or be buried so deeply that the substrate itself is providing strength to the shank.

In cases where the anchor is caught fast on rock and the shank bends because the punter is hauling the bow under with the windlass - well, bendable shanks are OK with me there, and I chalk that up to circumstances and bad luck. I don't think any manufacturer should be expected to provide a shank that doesn't bend in this case. I don't even think it should be warrantied for this.

Mark (cotemar), I remember you owned a Mantus and remember they either gave it to you free or for a significantly reduced cost that was not available to others. You have been a bit shrill about going after perceived collusions, so for honesty please remind us of your relationship with Mantus. I apologize in advance if my memory is incorrect here.

And for my transparency, we own a Rocna, Spade and Fortress, and I have had email conversations publicly and privately with Craig, Alain, and Brian, but have no connections with any of those companies and have received no discounts or similar from them (although Brian did ship me free mud palms for our Fortress).

Mark

I can support Mark's anecdotal evidence here with my own experience -- a couple of years with a 55kg Rocna in all kinds of conditions also showed that the anchor buried deep and never released under any conditions whatsoever. It never seemed to me that the roll bar inhibited setting deeply.

My Rocna could be hard to set, especially -- for some reason -- in soft mud. I have no idea whether the roll bar had anything to do with that. My guess is that the roll bar is probably not material, and that this is really a function of the not very sharp fluke.

I am now using a Spade (I've gone back to a Spade after having used one on my old boat for many years), which as everyone knows has no roll bar. It sets quite a bit better than the Rocna did; holds the same (in my experience). My guess is that the sharper fluke and lead ballast account for the improved setting performance. The lead ballast must also be responsible for the Spade's much better performance when hauling it into the bow roller -- it comes up right side up every time, whereas the Rocna liked being upside down and needed to be horsed around with a boat hook. I was able to eliminate the swivel when I went to the Spade, a big plus. Downside of the lead ballast is I now can't regalvanise the anchor, which my much-used Spade really needs by now.


As to shank strength -- I rather agree with Mark that the case for strong shanks being of critical importance to safety is somewhat questionable. However, I would rather be safe than sorry, and so I personally would avoid an anchor with a weak shank. I think JonJo has done everyone a great service by analyzing this and getting the issue into our consciousness, and I think Greg has also contributed a lot to our understanding with his engineering analyses. I look forward to a polite continuation of this very useful discussion.

[Delfin]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I think I understand his point -- I think he means that it would be rare for the force to be exactly 90 degrees, so the shackle will slide up in many cases and reduce the leverage, protecting the anchor shank.

I guess it wouldn't help you if the force were being applied at 80 degree, for example, but in many cases it would help.

It seems plausible to me and it would be interesting to see some objective research about how it works.

I wonder if much data has been accumulated about people using the Manson Supreme with its similar "rock slot". It's not obvious to me that the shackle sliding around in the slot would trip out the anchor -- I have only ever heard that from Craig Smith, and based only on his speculation. In moderate conditions, the pull will be exerted parallel to the seabed as the chain will be on the bottom, so a reversal of force would seem to pull the anchor around in any case.

It would be helpful to have more actual real world destructive testing on comparable anchors. Other than what I have seen on one size of the Fortress, I'm not sure they exist. If they do, it would be great to have a reference.

Logically, the whole rock slot issue seems to me to be a non-issue. For it to be a problem, on a 180 degree wind shift, the anchor would have to be stable being dragged backwards, which I doubt.

[Cotemar]

Originally Posted by colemj

cotemar, I remember you owned a Mantus and remember they either gave it to you free or for a significantly reduced cost that was not available to others. You have been a bit shrill about going after perceived collusions, so for honesty please remind us of your relationship with Mantus. I apologize in advance if my memory is incorrect here.

Mark

colemj,

I did own a Mantus 45 lbs anchor as shown here along with my Rocna 44 lbs. I purchased it last year when Mantus offered a discount to all here on the CF. I paid what everyone else paid at the time of the discount.

I sold my Mantus 45 to another CF as the same price I paid for it to pass on the discount.

The Rocna 44lbs is my current primary anchor.

I also own a Fortress FX23 as my backup and storm anchor.

I agree that as a cruiser we should never need to remove the roll bar.

And for my transparency, we own a Rocna and Fortress, and I have email conversations publicly and privately with 99.999% of the CF. It’s my job as you know.