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**Mantus Anchors** · 22-10-2013, 08:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by sabray

The customer who asked what his shank was made of should have had a real answer. I appreciate your work but obviously you have not changed production and the shank material of all mantus anchors is not in question. You just acknowledged that no change has been made. That's not transparent. Did I miss something?
Just saying you have our standard shank and we may upgrade later would have been honest/ transparent approach. Pm me and I will explain is a dodge .

In fact we did, all our 13 lbs anchors have A514 steel but we do not want to make an announcement, of a change of material until we changed the material on all anchors and are no longer selling mild steel shanks. I hope this makes sense. If the customer asks we will always accommodate and swap the shanks..

an individual customer had a personal question, that I believe was answered to his satisfaction...
Let me know if anything else could be clarified
greg

**Jim Cate** · 22-10-2013, 08:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by noelex 77

Every year I see many boats drag. I have never seen, or even heard of a boat dragging because an anchor bent or broke during use (with the exception of the Spade where the owner forgot to bolt the shank to the fluke

). Boats dragging because of bent/broken swivels, shackles, chain, even pulled out cleats yes, but bent/broken anchors never. I am by not saying this is impossible, but the odds must be exceptionally low. Most bent anchors occur upon retrieval.

99.99% (OK I made that statistic up

but it gives the right idea) drag because the anchor does not hold. Most of the rest of the .01%, because the swivel broke or the shackle came undone.

...

My experience mirrors this. The few distorted anchors of any design that I have seen were damaged during retrieval, usually when fouled on some immovable object. I have even bent a fluke on a genuine 20 kg Bruce... something I had believed to be impossible. But bending as a cause for dragging does not seem to be, in practice, an issue.

An anchor with a bent shaft should be retired from service, and a manufacturer who will then replace it is to be praised. Most cruisers, myself included, carry spare anchors in order to deal with such an event as a bent shaft, so while inconvenient, it is not a true disaster.

So, IMO this great kerfuffle about shaft bending is inappropriate.

YMMV.

Jim

Maine Sail · 22-10-2013, 09:24

FWIW I have a very early Mantus anchor and Greg was completely up-front and completely honest about the shank being made from mild steel. He did not hide this in any way shape or form. I still chose to buy the anchor. I have personally loaded this anchor to over 4000 pounds using a digital load cell and a 500HP sport fishing boat. Shank is still perfectly straight even though it is made from mild steel.

The thing I like is that Greg did not tell me one thing then sell me another, as Rocna did with many folks. He was honest about the shanks grade of steel. He also did not insist, as the designer, that the anchor had to be built using BIS 80 etc. then sell me a lesser grade of steel.

I think its odd that we've chosen to pick apart one anchor where there are piles of knock off anchors made in China built to mysterious & unknown specs. For years Danforth sold a High tensile versions and a less expensive model with a lower grade steel.

The shank of my Spade A-80 is thin walled hollow welded aluminum. It has seen some nasty conditions and even that has not bent...

I still see knock off CQR's on cruising boats made of unknown specs, knock off Delta's, there are 6 or 7 knock off Bruce anchors none of them, that I know of, built to the spec of the original which was heat treated cast steel. Some of them are brittle cast iron, not cast steel.

Heck Lewmar can't even tell you if their Claw is heat treated cast steel or just plain old cast steel. You would think a manufacturer like Lewmar might know this sort of thing considering they own Delta, CQR and the Claw. Perhaps their 3 year warranty on the Claw is reflective of that unknown specification...?

Even the venerable CQR does not cover, and specifically excludes, "bending or deformation" in the warranty yet Greg is will to do so for an anchor that costs about 1/3 what a new CQR does. I tend to like that...

Because we've not cut open an Ultra why do they seemingly get a pass with a hollow SS shank in this discussion..?

Can someone tell me the strength of my hollow aluminum Spade A-80 shank? It is made from 3/16" thick aluminum, welded, and hollow. Compared to a Mantus 35 perhaps? A Lewmar DTX? An Ultra? How about the hollow steel shank of my Spade S-80?

Why is it okay for Lewmar to offer the new DTX SS Fast Set anchor made from 316SS and only a 3 year warranty but also offer a higher grade SS anchor with a lifetime warranty (except of course for bending and deformation)....? Has anyone run the calculations on the new DTX Fast Set anchors...? Why is Lemar getting a pass with the new DTX or the Claw?

It does seem as if we've singled out one manufacturer when there are plenty who sneak by? I only hope we put all of them to the shank bending tests and treat them all the exact same especially if you are publishing stuff in a magazine that purports no biases. No bias would be equal treatement for ALL anchors not just ones who advertise here..

Why are so many anchors not under the same scrutiny as the Mantus by JonJo? Why are all the no-names, or anchors built to lesser standards in the same line up (eg: Fast-Set), not being discussed equally...?

This thread leaves me with more questions than answers. Why has anchor shank bending testing not been performed across the board? Are biases present? Is it driven by ad dollars? Why not test all of them equally using the same testing procedures. I would personally love to know how my:

CQR
Fortress
Bruce
Manson Supreme
Rocna
Mantus
Supermax
Oceanne
Spade S-80
Spade A-80
Danforth

etc. would do in testing....

(Note; I currently own all the anchors listed above, hence my curiosity in those specific anchors but I would not want to exclude any..)

So lets see the physical testing of all anchors then we can single out the weaker ones and make our own decisions. This would be a good task for PS to undertake. The last article on this was a complete let down. They had pics of shank testing then never presented any data, across the board, of actual bend numbers or where they failed....

Just my observations....

**s/v Beth** · 22-10-2013, 10:07

Wow, with all those anchors MS you ought to open a marine store! Wait you are a marine store! Good points BTW.
Still going to get a Mantus- call it cruisers gut feeling. I haven't even met this Greg yet but I like him already.
Got a well used original cast CQR for sale- anyone? :-)

Delfin · 22-10-2013, 12:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

My experience mirrors this. The few distorted anchors of any design that I have seen were damaged during retrieval, usually when fouled on some immovable object. I have even bent a fluke on a genuine 20 kg Bruce... something I had believed to be impossible. But bending as a cause for dragging does not seem to be, in practice, an issue.

An anchor with a bent shaft should be retired from service, and a manufacturer who will then replace it is to be praised. Most cruisers, myself included, carry spare anchors in order to deal with such an event as a bent shaft, so while inconvenient, it is not a true disaster.

So, IMO this great kerfuffle about shaft bending is inappropriate.

YMMV.

Jim

This has never been about the likelihood of a shank bending - either with the cheapened Rocna or the current Mantus. What it has been about is whether given the choice between steel fit for the purpose and steel that is weaker, why a person would choose the anchor with weaker steel. Clearly not everyone thinks this way. Some because anchor shanks bending is a rare occurrence, and they attest to only anchoring in mud. Others because they already have one and are defending their purchase. Others just because they instinctively take the opposite side to an issue as someone they tangle with on the Forum.

Whatever their reason, please do carry on, but it is just plain weird to criticize someone who is interesting in appropriate engineering as vigorously as some have on this thread.

p.s. I was going to respond to Cotemar's outrageous accusation, but it has apparently been self censured. Probably a good idea.

avb3 · 22-10-2013, 12:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Delfin

This has never been about the likelihood of a shank bending - either with the cheapened Rocna or the current Mantus. What it has been about is whether given the choice between steel fit for the purpose and steel that is weaker, why a person would choose the anchor with weaker steel. Clearly not everyone thinks this way. Some because anchor shanks bending is a rare occurrence, and they attest to only anchoring in mud. Others because they already have one and are defending their purchase. Others just because they instinctively take the opposite side to an issue as someone they tangle with on the Forum.

Whatever their reason, please do carry on, but it is just plain weird to criticize someone who is interesting in appropriate engineering as vigorously as some have on this thread.

Delfin perhaps you may want to refresh our collective memories.

Much of the Rocna saga occurred as result of your independent metallurgical testing of that anchor. There is no question your efforts were important at that time and the sailing community is indebted for your efforts (and expense).

Jonjo became aware of your efforts and you and him had a number of emails back and forth pursuant to Jonjo preparing an article, isn't that correct?

Delfin · 22-10-2013, 12:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by avb3

Delfin perhaps you may want to refresh our collective memories.

Much of the Rocna saga occurred as result of your independent metallurgical testing of that anchor. There is no question your efforts were important at that time and the sailing community is indebted for your efforts (and expense).

Jonjo became aware of your efforts and you and him had a number of emails back and forth pursuant to Jonjo preparing an article, isn't that correct?

The issue with Rocna was bait and switch discovered from anchors that were bending. You can, as Maine Sail and Rocna have done, put an anchor with a mild steel shank in a straight pull and it will hold up fine. Side loading is a very different issue, but happens rarely, hence what I think is the very lame defense that a weak shank doesn't matter. Peter Smith appears to have been capable of a fair amount of deceit, but I do accept his statement that his anchor design, copied by Mantus, requires Bis 80 for the shank because to get the right balance the shank has to be thin and therefore must be made of the right stuff. Apparently Mantus also now agrees with that logic, although most on this thread insist that shank steel is irrelevant, which certainly begs the question of why change the steel then? I know the answer; you know the answer; Greg knows the answer. Because materials used in a product your boat depends on, however unlikely a failure may be without proper materials may be, should be appropriate for the purpose.

The best engineering is a not matter of designing the product to fit 99.5% of use cases, but to be robust enough to handle the .05% use case. If you want cheap, you forfeit that capability, but who in their right mind trusts their boat to cheap ground tackle? Oh yes, lots of people....but that doesn't make it rational.

And I have no idea whether I influenced JonJo or not, and for the life of me, can't see what relevance this would have on the current discussion if I did.

**noelex 77** · 22-10-2013, 12:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by colemj

It turned out that the boat you mention actually put his Spade together backwards! He thought it should be plow-shaped and not concave. That is why he dragged into the rocks.

Mark

Thanks Mark maybe a candidate for the nautical "Darwin awards". I have seen some joke posts featuring the Spade assembled backwards, but never upside down. Its hard to believe anyone would do this intentionally, but not all yachtsmen are the smart, astute characters that read Cruising Forum

I think the case I am remembering is a different one, but it shows there are a lot of bizarre ways to drag.

**Mantus Anchors** · 22-10-2013, 13:21

There is fear mongering, and there is reality:
Lets revisit this issue again: bc I do want the consumer to be very clear on this point....
Example one, shank aligned with the rode:
If you end up in a violent storm and are using our anchor, the shank, if loaded nominally (rode aligned with the shank) has a safety factor of greater than 500% against yield. Specifically, ABYC expected load on a 40 foot boat in a violent storm (60+ kts) is 4800 lbs. Assuming that boat is anchored on a 45 lbs Mantus and we triple that load to 15,000lbs, no area on the shank will come even close to yield (bending), not to mention ultimate breaking strength.

Example two, shank is laterally loaded:
So in the possibility that the anchor is permanently stuck in rock such that it can not re-align itself or displace at all, AND shank aligned vertically to ground AND the boat is pulling with perfect 90 angle at a shallow scope...
The expected load on a 40 foot boat in 30 knots is 1200 lbs- this will indeed bend our mild steel shanks AND the shanks of all our competitors. So somewhere between 20-30 knots with the given scenario above is the narrow window that differentiates us from shanks made of the best steel possible. This, is what is being discussed...

I agree a bent shank is very inconvenient but if a customer happens to encounter such a RARE event replacement parts are covered by our warranty as previously stated. Further as stated many times before we already are in the transition of changing the new shank material, further we offer free swaps... further sitting in front of the computer all day is not good for your health...
So away to work I go....May G-D watch this thread in my absence...

By the way guys I hope you all exercise, this pent up forum stress is new to me and I do not want alcohol to be the solution.... So everyone go for a 3 mile run than?
Delfin, JonJo you too.... I mean if we spend all day yelling at each other repeating the same thing over and over while foaming, overstating facts and feeling totally justified, it can only mean one thing
- we are a family!

I hope the rest of you find it at least a little amusing ?

Greg

Delfin · 22-10-2013, 13:53

Fear mongering? Really?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mantus Anchors

There is fear mongering, and there is reality:
Lets revisit this issue again: bc I do want the consumer to be very clear on this point....
Example one, shank aligned with the rode:
If you end up in a violent storm and are using our anchor, the shank, if loaded nominally (rode aligned with the shank) has a safety factor of greater than 500% against yield. Specifically, ABYC expected load on a 40 foot boat in a violent storm (60+ kts) is 4800 lbs. Assuming that boat is anchored on a 45 lbs Mantus and we triple that load to 15,000lbs, no area on the shank will come even close to yield (bending), not to mention ultimate breaking strength.

As I noted earlier, the strength of an anchor shank when the loading is inline will exceed the breaking strength of the chain. No one has ever questioned this, as it is irrelevant to the discussion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mantus Anchors

Example two, shank is laterally loaded:
So in the possibility that the anchor is permanently stuck in rock such that it can not re-align itself or displace at all, AND shank aligned vertically to ground AND the boat is pulling with perfect 90 angle at a shallow scope...
The expected load on a 40 foot boat in 30 knots is 1200 lbs- this will indeed bend our mild steel shanks AND the shanks of all our competitors. So somewhere between 20-30 knots with the given scenario above is the narrow window that differentiates us from shanks made of the best steel possible. This, is what is being discussed...

That would be factually incorrect. Bis 80 would absorb that load given the typical thickness of the shank, and I am pretty sure the Fortress would as well. Perhaps Brian from Fortress can confirm. The issue is as you have stated. The mild steel shank will bend, but contrary to what you have stated, the A514 steel would not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mantus Anchors

I agree a bent shank is very inconvenient but if a customer happens to encounter such a RARE event replacement parts are covered by our warranty as previously stated. Further as stated many times before we already are in the transition of changing the new shank material, further we offer free swaps... further sitting in front of the computer all day is not good for your health...
So away to work I go....May G-D watch this thread in my absence...

By the way guys I hope you all exercise, this pent up forum stress is new to me and I do not want alcohol to be the solution.... So everyone go for a 3 mile run than?
Delfin, JonJo you too.... I mean if we spend all day yelling at each other repeating the same thing over and over while foaming, overstating facts and feeling totally justified, it can only mean one thing
- we are a family!

I hope the rest of you find it at least a little amusing ?

Greg

No stress here, Greg. We're just discussing anchors. And we can agree that a bent anchor is a pain. Your warranty is great and would be a great comfort if the anchor bent at the end of a cruise, close to good shipping, etc. so it could be quickly and conveniently replaced. When you go to stronger steel, no one will have to worry. Which again raises a question I haven't heard answered. If, as you and your supporters say, bending anchor shanks is a non problem, why go to the expense of changing the steel in yours?

sailorboy1 · 22-10-2013, 13:59

WOW

Is there really a problem with a shank that MAY bend? I would think the bigger problem is with one that doesn't bend and breaks instead.

**hpeer** · 22-10-2013, 14:03

Greg, Thanks for your patience and wit.

Fortress · 22-10-2013, 14:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mantus Anchors

Example two, shank is laterally loaded:
So in the possibility that the anchor is permanently stuck in rock such that it can not re-align itself or displace at all, AND shank aligned vertically to ground AND the boat is pulling with perfect 90 angle at a shallow scope...
The expected load on a 40 foot boat in 30 knots is 1200 lbs- this will indeed bend our mild steel shanks AND the shanks of all our competitors. So somewhere between 20-30 knots with the given scenario above is the narrow window that differentiates us from shanks made of the best steel possible.
Greg

Greg, I would not make this claim without specifically testing anchors from other manufacturers to verify it.

The gentleman who developed the Anchor Saver product did some side-load testing on the shank of our 15lb / 7kg FX-23 model (for 40' boats as well) to use with his breakway / tripline system. His exact comments afterwards:

The Fx 23 produced extraordinary results. Conclusions;

The Shank sprung back at 1850 pounds of pressure. It will probably experience failure at around 2000 pounds. I would have to modify my machine to reach that load on this type of test. I think, this is way above the boat size requirements for this anchor.

Regards,
Brian

Delfin · 22-10-2013, 14:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

WOW

Is there really a problem with a shank that MAY bend? I would think the bigger problem is with one that doesn't bend and breaks instead.

That's basically why metallurgy matters. HT steel of the right type will bend and spring back. True, if you bend it enough it will deform. A514 will deform at around 3 times the force of mild steel which will bend and stay bent at 1/3 the force. May not matter to some, clearly, but may to others. That is a matter of personal preference and how much one wants to spend on engineering. If cheap equals value for you, then no issue.