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Old 03-04-2011, 11:13   #16
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Re: Is Manson Supreme 45lbs an upgrade over original bruce 44lbs?

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As far as 'knowing how to anchor' goes, I would recommend it to anybody
Sadly, that is not the case. Probably 75% of anchor failures are due to someone not setting the anchor properly and/or not putting out enough scope, no matter what anchor they are using.
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Old 03-04-2011, 12:31   #17
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Re: Is Manson Supreme 45lbs an upgrade over original bruce 44lbs?

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Get rid of that paranoia right away! ;-)

Do you really believe anybody would anchor a multimillion dollar worth of oil rig with anything less than a good anchor?
I think you are misunderstandings the term scale factor.
The Bruce anchor was originally designed as (by yacht standards) an extremely large and heavy anchor.
It is often assumed that anchors can be made smaller and larger and the holding will be proportional to the size, but there is a suggestion amongst the cruising communaty that when the Buce anchor gets scaled down (to under 75lb or so) its effectiveness becomes much less.
The force need to penetrate weed or hard sand does not change. It seems reasonable that an anchor design needs to be changed as anchors become much smaller or larger.

The Bruce anchor as used by yachts is also a very different design than that used for oil rigs.
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Old 03-04-2011, 12:39   #18
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Re: Is Manson Supreme 45lbs an upgrade over original bruce 44lbs?

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Sadly, that is not the case. Probably 75% of anchor failures are due to someone not setting the anchor properly and/or not putting out enough scope, no matter what anchor they are using.
That still leaves 25% of dragging due to the anchor design. This is a strong argument for getting the best anchor you can
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Old 03-04-2011, 16:23   #19
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Re: Is Manson Supreme 45lbs an upgrade over original bruce 44lbs?

I'm not arguing against using a good anchor, but no matter what the anchor or the weight you still have to use it properly.
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Old 03-04-2011, 17:19   #20
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Re: Is Manson Supreme 45lbs an upgrade over original bruce 44lbs?

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Sadly, that is not the case. Probably 75% of anchor failures are due to someone not setting the anchor properly and/or not putting out enough scope, no matter what anchor they are using.
OK. But let us not move the blame from sailors' failures dept. onto equipment failures dept.? OK?

If someone does not know how to anchor, they will not know how to anchor with any design.

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Old 03-04-2011, 18:19   #21
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Re: Is Manson Supreme 45lbs an upgrade over original bruce 44lbs?

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Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
I think you are misunderstandings the term scale factor. The Bruce anchor was originally designed as (by yacht standards) an extremely large and heavy anchor. It is often assumed that anchors can be made smaller and larger and the holding will be proportional to the size, but there is a suggestion amongst the cruising communaty that when the Buce anchor gets scaled down (to under 75lb or so) its effectiveness becomes much less.
(...)
It might be assumed but it has not been assumed in this thread. The relation to oil rigs has been introduced semi-humoristically (much as Simpson-Lawrence did use this trick in their marketing).

Anchors can be made smaller / bigger and their properties will be proportional. Alas, now we will run into the issue of how we measure the proportion - because we can get proportion of size (e.g. length, width, depth), blade area, weight, but not all of them at the same size. A separate issue is that anchors' usability will depend on more than one factor - and these factors may depend on various dimensions - penetrability may depend on weight while holding power on blade area (etc.) and these are not linearly proportional for any two anchors built to scale!

The scale factor would count here only if we were to transgress some physical boundary (example - the smaller anchor not being able penetrate to the same type of ground as the bigger one, or the bigger anchor not being able to fully set in a ground that a smaller model would set in fully). In other words - scale factor comes into play when the two models undergo differing physical phenomena. But this is not an issue here, unless proven otherwise.

To sum up, I would claim that it is not the scale factor that counts, but rather proportionality of desirable properties (or actually lack of thereof) as we up/downsize anchors based on any selected dimension - size (lxbxd), area or weight.

This lengthy blah could seem to constitute a sound drift. However, do note that it is the wise use of the (un-) proportionality of features that made the Rocnas/Masons/Spades/Brugels such a heated subject. They do promise to offer disproportional gain in desirable features for any given weight! And I do hope they deliver on the promise - as I am going to have one of them on our bow, as soon as we use up our rusty-trusty Bruce. (wink)

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Old 03-04-2011, 18:47   #22
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Re: Is Manson Supreme 45lbs an upgrade over original bruce 44lbs?

I always find it hard to believe all the "don't know how to anchor" postings. Because if there are that many that can not figure out how to anchor it worries me that they are out on the water to start with.

But to the OP question; yes I consider it an upgrade. I put my Surpeme on today and it seemed to want to dig into the ground while I was dragging it around in front of the boat while hoisting it onto the roller.
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Old 03-04-2011, 21:40   #23
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Re: Is Manson Supreme 45lbs an upgrade over original bruce 44lbs?

A correctly sized Supreme / Rocna is an upgrade to any previously owned anchor used for general purpose anchoring. No ifs, No Buts.
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Old 03-04-2011, 22:06   #24
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Re: Is Manson Supreme 45lbs an upgrade over original bruce 44lbs?

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
OK. But let us not move the blame from sailors' failures dept. onto equipment failures dept.? OK?

If someone does not know how to anchor, they will not know how to anchor with any design.

b.
thankk-yoooou!!!!!!!!!!!!!


have witnessed many many many unable anchorers--is humorous yet dangerous. is fascinating to watch, as you are no t able to keep your eyes off these folks. i have seen on some days, 4 out of 7 not able to anchor. is a common thing--not only in kali, but in pensacola, in mississippi, ALA....
IS scary thought.

my new to me 60 pound bruce is BEEEEEYOOOOOTEEEFUUULLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !
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Old 03-04-2011, 22:19   #25
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Re: Is Manson Supreme 45lbs an upgrade over original bruce 44lbs?

Enjoy!! just as one type of woman doesn't suit everyone the same goes for anchors.
Oh I forgot they are the same?
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Old 03-04-2011, 23:32   #26
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Re: Is Manson Supreme 45lbs an upgrade over original bruce 44lbs?

For the OP:

A few years ago we changed from a 66 lb Bruce knockoff to a 60m lb Manson Supreme.

While the Bruce worked fairly well over a number of years, there were times when it was reluctant to set. Worst case was (no surprise) weed over hard sand.

The Manson has been nigh unto faultless so far (about 4 years full time cruising and anchoring out habitually). Sets quicker in all bottoms, buries well and has only dragged once. That was during a flood on the Clarence River... a huge mass of weed and other debris built up on the chain and bow, and the 6 knot current pushed us slowly and inexorably downstream. Bottom was typical soupy river mud.

So, in our case I believe that the change from a Bruce to a similar size Manson was indeed an upgrade.

Cheers,

Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II lying Morning Cove NSW, Oz
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Old 03-04-2011, 23:58   #27
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Re: Is Manson Supreme 45lbs an upgrade over original bruce 44lbs?

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A correctly sized Supreme / Rocna is an upgrade to any previously owned anchor used for general purpose anchoring. No ifs, No Buts.
What that smart man said unless you have had a Spade or Ultra, in which case you are swapping like for like.

Yes a 45 Supreme is better than a genuine Bruce of the same weight. And a genuine Bruce is way better than the multitude of Bruce of often marginal build quality knock-offs.
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Old 05-04-2011, 06:12   #28
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Re: Is Manson Supreme 45lbs an upgrade over original bruce 44lbs?

Thank you everybody!! This is very helpful!
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Old 05-04-2011, 06:26   #29
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Re: Is Manson Supreme 45lbs an upgrade over original bruce 44lbs?

Keep the Manson, sell the Bruce. I replaced (sold) my 44 lb. Bruce with a 55 lb. Delta.
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Old 05-04-2011, 19:44   #30
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Re: Is Manson Supreme 45lbs an upgrade over original bruce 44lbs?

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Sadly, that is not the case. Probably 75% of anchor failures are due to someone not setting the anchor properly and/or not putting out enough scope, no matter what anchor they are using.

Well here I go again Kettlewell. NO, not peeing on your post, it is just that my experience is somewhat different.

Where we frequent, it seems people either have purchased the wrong (cheapest most likely) anchor for our conditions OR they just use the anchor that came with their boat when purchased. The most common fault is using an anchor that is too small. OH, and for every decent anchor, there are usually 3 times as many Danforths. I find that too many people rely on manufacturer's charts that present unrealistic holding for their products.

A Danforth style has good holding potential in sand but anything less than about 20#s is not going to cut through our ell grass. And if it does, it will most likely behave the same way a Bruce. They seem to hold until a load is placed on them and they just rip out a huge divot of ocean bottom; not a pleasant anchors aweigh!

But sure, improperly setting any anchor will lead to unpleasant surprises.

I sincerely wish that people would invest the needed due diligence, confirm that their anchor/rode (or the one they desire to purchase) is adequate before anchoring anyplace. Would make for great anchoring for everybody. Just my thoughts--

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