Is a 45 Pound Delta Big Enough for a 40' Offshore Liveaboard ?

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by Jon Hacking

A storm anchor doesn't have to set quickly, but it does need extreme holding power. For that, I like big flukes & lots of surface area, like a Danforth type (we use a Fortress FX-125). It may not set easily, but once in it's not going to drag easily.

Although forecasts are getting better its not unusual for them to get it wrong. The strongest storm I have been in at anchor the forecast was only for force 6 (25K).
If I had to use a storm anchor every time they forecast force 6 and above I would be using the storm anchor a couple of times a week.

Yes you can re-anchor and change to the larger anchor, but most people that advocate this have never tried re-anchoring when its blowing over 50K.

Get a big anchor and use it all the time. Just my 2c

[Mike OReilly]

We went from a 45lb CQR to a 55lb (25kg) rocna. Our boat (Rafiki 37) weighs in around 27,000#. The CQR never really let us down, although it did take some effort to set at times. In one summer of use the rocna always set fast, never dragged, and really proved itself in a 50knot blow we had this past summer.

The storm was the leading edge of a vicious cold front that rolled in very fast (one of many we had this summer on Lake Superior). In the span of two hours with sustained 50 knts winds we rotated a full 360 degrees in a tight anchorage. We rode on 150' of 3/8" chain (and snubbers), in something like 15' water. At the end of it we were in exactly the same spot.

I'm not confident the story would have ended the same had we been sitting on our old CQR.

[teejayevans]

I think we all have experience the 50 knot storms (My dinghy was airborne in one), and I agree that re-anchoring would be difficult if not impossible, the best course of action in that case is to just use the motor to take the load off the anchor. Once you have been through a 50K+ storm, you'll have great appreciation for your anchor, whatever it is.
Tom

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by teejayevans

I think we all have experience the 50 knot storms (My dinghy was airborne in one), and I agree that re-anchoring would be difficult if not impossible, the best course of action in that case is to just use the motor to take the load off the anchor. Once you have been through a 50K+ storm, you'll have great appreciation for your anchor, whatever it is.
Tom

Agreed Tom. We were at the controls ready to fire up the Perkins at the first sign of drag. This is why I am so sure, and so impressed, that we moved not a meter.

The OP asked about the adequacy of his 45lb CQR. In my case, I'm very glad we moved to a new spade-type anchor. I'm uncertain whether our old 45lb anchor would not have held. And no, I don't think it matters between a manson, rocna or spade. In fact, proper anchoring technique is far more important than what hunk of metal you use.

[Bash]

My boat, which displaces 15 tons, came with a 44 lb. Delta, which we used for a short while on an all-chain rode. The anchor was insufficient in mud. Traded it for a good bottle of wine, and felt I got the better part of that deal.

[Jon Hacking]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

...If I had to use a storm anchor every time they forecast force 6 and above I would be using the storm anchor a couple of times a week. Yes you can re-anchor and change to the larger anchor, but most people that advocate this have never tried re-anchoring when its blowing over 50K. Get a big anchor and use it all the time. Just my 2c

Noelex, I was just expressing my opinion - my 2¢ if you will - based on 16 years of world cruising. I certainly wasn't trying to say my way was the only way, or even the best way, just that it works for me.

But perhaps I wasn't clear. I expect my working anchor to hold in sustained 50kt winds. My Fortress is for real storms - cyclones & such - & you're right that they're usually predicted pretty well.

When I get caught with the wrong anchor down, then I do what TJ recommends - relieve the strain on the gear by motoring a bit (& trying not to over-run my anchor, which can be difficult).

[Jon Hacking]

Originally Posted by Bash

My 15 ton boat came with a 44lb Delta, which ... was insufficient in mud. Traded it for a good bottle of wine, and felt I got the better part of that deal.

Soft bottoms are always a problem, as some anchors will float on it or simply plow it without digging in. It's one of my problems with the Rocna/Manson/Bugel anchors. They set quickly (& re-set quickly if tripped) but their surface area is small relative to many other anchors of the same weight. Does easy setting have to come at the expense of surface area? Rocna's suggestion to simply go up a size or 2 doesn't sit well with us weight-conscious multis (although that's what we ended up doing...)

[Bash]

Originally Posted by Jon Hacking

Soft bottoms are always a problem, as some anchors will float on it or simply plow it without digging in. It's one of my problems with the Rocna/Manson/Bugel anchors. They set quickly (& re-set quickly if tripped) but their surface area is small relative to many other anchors of the same weight. Does easy setting have to come at the expense of surface area? Rocna's suggestion to simply go up a size or 2 doesn't sit well with us weight-conscious multis (although that's what we ended up doing...)

All I can tell you is that I replaced my 44 lb Delta with a 25 kilo Rocna, and it hasn't yet dragged despite the fact that I'm spending around 80-90 days per year on the hook.

[colemj]

Originally Posted by Jon Hacking

Soft bottoms are always a problem, as some anchors will float on it or simply plow it without digging in. It's one of my problems with the Rocna/Manson/Bugel anchors. They set quickly (& re-set quickly if tripped) but their surface area is small relative to many other anchors of the same weight. Does easy setting have to come at the expense of surface area? Rocna's suggestion to simply go up a size or 2 doesn't sit well with us weight-conscious multis (although that's what we ended up doing...)

Yes, I think that for the most part easy setting (and resetting) is at the expense of surface area. Large surface area anchors like danforth styles need to be set hard to get all their fluke buried and can have a difficult time resetting because of their design. But they are the best at holding power.

The tradeoff would be to buy an aluminum Spade of the same weight as your current steel primary - that will give you a 3-4x increase in surface area for the same weight.

Mark

[Jim Cate]

G'Day Dennis,

Glad that things are coming together for you. As to the anchor, I would upgrade, for the 45 lb Delta is marginal for your proposed voyages and the potentially exposed anchorages you are likely to encounter. As to which specific one to use... I'm not brave enough to risk that minefield! We have chosen to move from Bruce to Manson, but I'm sure that there are other options that are as good.

The chain is another issue. We've had ~275 feet of 10 mm on both boats, and have found that to be adequate. On Insatiable One we had a bunch of nylon spliced on to the end but never needed it. The deepest anchorage we ever attempted was at Ta'aaha (sp?) in the Societies and was about 90 feet. In depths like this, we've found that 3:1 works fine in reasonable conditions, and I wouldn't like to be in that depth in storm conditions.

The issue of joining chain has been beaten to death here on CF. There are joining links that are equally strong as standard G-30/40 chain. We have used them in all of our all-chain rodes and don't worry about them.

Cheers,

Jim

[Jon Hacking]

Originally Posted by colemj

...The tradeoff would be to buy an aluminum Spade of the same weight as your current steel primary - that will give you a 3-4x increase in surface area for the same weight. Mark

Mark, you hit a nerve. I have issues with the Spade in particular because I've seen one folded up like a pretzel when it's (hollow!) shank failed. But you're absolutely right that aluminum can help the performance/weight ratio - which is why we carry an aluminum Fortress FX-125 storm anchor.

[colemj]

A hollow trapezoidal shank is stronger than a solid piece of plate (think box beam), so being hollow shouldn't bother you. I suspect the one you saw folded was an aluminum shank, which have bent in several Spades under a strong side load, and would also bend in any aluminum anchor (Fortress). I have seen one steel Spade shank bent, but the cause of that would have bent any other anchor's shaft also (CQR, etc).

I think the chance for bent shanks goes up appreciably for newer generation anchors that don't like to give up their grip or pull out easily. However, that is a tradeoff I am willing to live with.

Mark

[klem]

Originally Posted by teejayevans

I think we all have experience the 50 knot storms (My dinghy was airborne in one), and I agree that re-anchoring would be difficult if not impossible, the best course of action in that case is to just use the motor to take the load off the anchor. Once you have been through a 50K+ storm, you'll have great appreciation for your anchor, whatever it is.
Tom

While this works for some boats, it does not work for others. If your boat is very well behaved at anchor and does not veer a lot, it will probably work. However, with many boats powering ahead will actually make things worse since the boat will start veering more and shock loads will go up. The US navy actually used to recommend (maybe they still do?) backing on the anchor to reduce veering and lower peak loads during storms. These are significantly larger boats but even they have problems with this.

[dennisail]

I just heard back from the previous owner of my boat. Delta is 55lbs! Jim would you still upgrade this 55lbs anchor? I had a manson supreme on my last boat and it was great. I had planned to get one for this boat, but costs are already blowing out, but one area I do not want to save money is the anchor. However if a 55lbs delta is a good anchor I will not get a supreme. If I had a CQR style I would replace as I do not like them. I have never used a delta but I have read where people sware by them so I am not sure if I really require an upgrade as this seems fairly large and decent design. However if you would not feel comfortable with this setup I will certainly consider chaining it since you have enormous experience in the areas I will be going.

Re. anchors/rode: Approx 275' 5/16HT chain w/approx 400' 5/8 nylon rode attached to the 55lb Delta anchor in the fwd anchor locker. The danforth stored in the bilge is 40lb with approx 250' 5/8 nylon rode. There is also a 22lb danforth w/approx 50' 5/16 HT chain w/ approx 250' 5/8 nylon rode in the stern locker used as a stern anchor.

Seems a decent anchoring inventory already? Thoughts on adequacy?

[Factor]

The specs look fine dennis, just one thing - is there any chain on the 40lb danforth? If there isnt I suppose you could use the chain from the 22lb?