If I have anchor cleat, and use a snubber, do I need to bother with a chain stopper?

[Tingum]

The snubber WILL BREAK, it is just a matter of when.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Paul Elliott

It's like belt and suspenders, but I say that if you have a good snubber then you don't need a chain stopper. If conditions are tough you might want to rig a back-up snubber in case your working snubber chafes through.

I expect that some will disagree. I don't have a chain stopper, but wouldn't mind it if I did.

I hate to disagree, but I must.

A snubber, priorly sized, will always have a far lower breaking strength than the rode. It is not intended to be the weakest link. It is intended to absorb shocks, and it WILL fail far short of your ground tackle's ultimate strength.

So in my view you must use a chain stopper.

Speaking from experience, my chain stopper probably saved my life one night when the wind shifted to neutralize our shelter; turned into an Easterly gale. The snubber parted. But the chain stopper kept us off the rocks. Getting the anchor up was a whole adventure - we were in the surf!

Please! Don't anchor without a chain stopper.

[wingless]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

A nylon tail is a good idea (it also means the anchor gear can be quickly cut free)

That is what I use on my all-chain rode, so that I can cut it free if-required.

[estarzinger]

I think it depend in part on what you mean by a "chain stopper".

If you mean any sort of strong back up to the snubber, then I would suggest you should use one in bad conditions. I use a spectra strop.

But if you mean one of those "bolt to the deck" stainless "jam cleats for chain", then I would suggest you don't "have to" have one. We do not. They have pros and cons.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

I think it depend in part on what you mean by a "chain stopper".

If you mean any sort of strong back up to the snubber, then I would suggest you should use one in bad conditions. I use a spectra strop.

But if you mean one of those "bolt to the deck" stainless "jam cleats for chain", then I would suggest you don't "have to" have one. We do not. They have pros and cons.

I agree that a strop is as good as a jammer.

I don't agree that it should be used only in bad weather. Snubbers can break, chafe through, come untied, etc., etc. In a variety of circumstances besides just bad weather.

Snubbers are for absorbing shock, not for keeping your boat off the rocks. For keeping your boat off the rocks, every link in the system needs to have a certain minimum strength, otherwise no point in having a strong chain or anchor with high holding power, or strong shackle.

[LBW399]

Hey thanks guys, excellent replies all of 'em.
Probably leaning towards installing one.
Evans solution is also interesting.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

So in my view you must use a chain stopper.

There is actually a bigger/deeper issue here. It is whether you operate your vessel with "hard and fast rules" or with "judgement". This comes up in many facets, but most often harness/tether/pfd and anchoring and reefing.

If you sail with crew you don't know well, or who have limited skills/judgement, then hard and fast rules make good sense.

Based on my experience with industrial QA, I can also understand/support hard and fast rules. You realize people make mistakes and surprises happen.

But on my own vessel, with Beth as crew, I run a judgement based system. Why, given the second point above . . . . Because I learn more and more quickly and learn to develop better judgement. IMHO judgement is the coin of seamanship.

I also personally am somewhat allergic to "must". I am like a too smart 10 year old boy and if someone tells me I must do something, I usually work hard to find an alternative way

[transmitterdan]

I agree with Evans. I would just point out that some people don't always learn from their mistakes in judgement. For them hard/fast is about the only way they can survive and that's OK. The problem is that a relatively few even know which category they fall into. Most believe they learn from the few mistakes they have made. But in reality the percentage that actually learn from mistakes is much lower. In fact, a significant percentage don't even recognize a mistake when they make one. Like for example, me posting this bit here is probably a mistake.

Oh, we don't have a chain stopper and probably not going to install one.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

There is actually a bigger/deeper issue here. It is whether you operate your vessel with "hard and fast rules" or with "judgement". This comes up in many facets, but most often harness/tether/pfd and anchoring and reefing.

If you sail with crew you don't know well, or who have limited skills/judgement, then hard and fast rules make good sense.

Based on my experience with industrial QA, I can also understand/support hard and fast rules. You realize people make mistakes and surprises happen.

But on my own vessel, with Beth as crew, I run a judgement based system. Why, given the second point above . . . . Because I learn more and more quickly and learn to develop better judgement. IMHO judgement is the coin of seamanship.

I also personally am somewhat allergic to "must". I am like a too smart 10 year old boy and if someone tells me I must do something, I usually work hard to find an alternative way

Well, I'll retract the word "must", which was inappropriate. Of course, I have no right to use such a word since everyone runs his own ship according to his own judgement. Naturally

The question of whether or not to use a chain stopper is not, however, a question of "hard and fast rules" versus "judgement". It's a question of one judgement versus a different judgement.

My own judgement is that the four seconds (max) it takes me to put on the chain stopper is no price at all to pay to have 100% of my anchoring system strength versus 30% - a no-brainer, so to speak. Other people may prefer to save the four seconds of their time - that's their business. It's certainly true that in 99% of situations, 30% of strength is enough - you might only need the full strength of your anchoring system once in a lifetime.

Oh, but when you need that strength,, you really need it.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

My own judgement is that the four seconds (max) it takes me to put on the chain stopper is no price at all to pay to have 100% of my anchoring system strength versus 30% - a no-brainer, so to speak.

Normally a chain stopper is "on" all the time. That is one of its advantages over a rope and chain hook.

When releasing the chain the handle needs to push forward. Most models could be improved with more sensible system to retain the handle in the released position. (Some people use the chain stopper to control the release of the chain, but I prefer the more progressive nature of the windlass clutch, or occasionally powering down)

Maxwell and muir make the best chain stoppers that I have seen.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

Normally a chain stopper is "on" all the time. That is one of its advantages over a rope and chain hook.

When releasing the chain the handle needs to push forward. Most models could be improved with more sensible system to retain the handle in the released position.

Maxwell and muir make the best chain stoppers that I have seen.

That's a really nice system.

My chain stopper is more primitive than that - a length of proof tested stainless chain shackled to the inner forestay chainplate, with a chain hook on the other end. But it works fine - flip it onto the chain and blip the windlass to transfer the load. Four seconds max.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

My chain stopper is more primitive than that - a length of proof tested stainless chain shackled to the inner forestay chainplate, with a chain hook on the other end.

I think we are probably adopting slightly different definitions. I would not describe your system as a chain stopper, rather a rope (or in your case short length of chain) and chain hook.

Although it does stop the chain

Most chain stoppers acts in a similar way to a rope clutch. The chain can pulled up, but as soon as any pressure pulls the chain out it locks automatically. Some big ships use a guillotine type chain stopper that does not do this, but it still works and is engaged very differently to chain hook.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

I think we are probably adopting slightly different definitions. I would not describe your system as a chain stopper, rather a rope (or in your case short length of chain) and chain hook.

Although it does stop the chain

Most chain stoppers acts in a similar way to a rope clutch. The chain can pulled up, but as soon as any pressure pulls the chain out it locks automatically. Some big ships use a guillotine type chain stopper that does not do this, but it still works and is engaged very differently to chain hook.

Yes, I guess we are, and perhaps my usage is incorrect.

The purpose is all the same -- to make off the anchor rode to a strong point on the boat, something I always thought was fundamental to anchoring, since the whole system is only as strong as the weakest link.

I really like the looks of the stoppers you posted -- I never used anything like that (my previous boat had a very primitive chain stopper which required a pin to be manually inserted through a chain link). My main concern using one of those would be the strength of its attachment to the deck. If I had one of them, I would want to be really sure that it would not be ripped out of the deck if a force equal to the maximum strength of the rest of the system were applied to it.

I gave a lot of thought to the question of an anchor point when I designed my current crude stopper (or strop, if you prefer). I decided on the forestay chainplate as it provides a fair lead to the chain, and because it is clearly stronger than the anchor rode. Besides that, it is under stress on a daily basis when sailing so is being tested under load, as it were.

Every element of my strop is as strong as the anchor chain (1/2" G40 high test, so about 2 metric tons working load and 8 1/2 metric tons breaking strength), and it is chafe-proof. My light weather snubber is 12mm nylon octoplait with working load of only 600kg, and highly vulnerable to chafe, so in no way comparable to the strop, or at all suitable, in my humble opinion, as the ultimate attachment of the anchoring system to the boat.

However, there are two downsides to my system: (a) the strop can interfere with the windlass if I'm not careful to pull it away; and (b) it relies on a chain hook for attachment to the anchor chain, strong enough, but not the most reliable device in the world. I guess there's a third: (c) doesn't look all that neat.

So if I didn't have a long list of more urgent modifications and repairs to think about, I would definitely consider one of those really cool stoppers you posted, if I could figure out a strong enough way to mount it.

[estarzinger]

I believe a priority is to be able to release the chain instantly in all conditions. Which us why I use the spectra strop. It can be cut while under load. The other two solutions (jammer, and chain strop) essentially require you to take the load off the device before it can be released . . . And that may not be possible (quickly) if the windless breaks or the breaker trips.

On our very first ever landfall at Bermuda we watched a cruising boat smashed by a cruise ship that drifted down on the anchored fleet sideways in 40kts of wind. The cruising boat could not release their chain and their anchor was under the cruise ship with the rode stretched bar tight. We have been in enough other situations where releasing the chain quickly and "getting out of there" was plan b that I think it is an important consideration . . . More important than "what if the snubber breaks" or "what if the windless clutch breaks".

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

I believe a priority is to be able to release the chain instantly in all conditions. Which us why I use the spectra strop. It can be cut while under load. The other two solutions (jammer, and chain strop) essentially require you to take the load off the device before it can be released . . . And that may not be possible (quickly) if the windless breaks or the breaker trips.

On our very first ever landfall at Bermuda we watched a cruising boat smashed by a cruise ship that drifted down on the anchored fleet sideways in 40kts of wind. The cruising boat could not release their chain and their anchor was under the cruise ship with the rode stretched bar tight. We have been in enough other situations where releasing the chain quickly and "getting out of there" was plan b that I think it is an important consideration . . . More important than "what if the snubber breaks" or "what if the windless clutch breaks".

Releasing the chain instantly is not a problem with my strop, because with the snubber still in place, the chain is not carrying any load other than the weight of the loop. I just pull it up with my hand and flip off the chain hook.

However, one can imagine a situation where the snubber has broken and you urgently need to slip your anchor, so your idea to make it out of a cuttable material is actually great I think I will steal it and make Strop V2.0 out of Dyneema. There is no reason in the world why a spectra strop could not be designed to be as strong as the main anchor rode, so there is no need to choose between being able to quickly get rid of it, and having an anchor point as strong as the rode. You can have both . 14mm Marlow Dyneema should be up to the job, for my application.

I believe you also use spectra on your ueber-snubber, correct? This will make your snubber more reliable than ours -- our snubbers, designed for shock absorption, are stretchy and highly vulnerable to chafe, especially the thin light weather ones. I am not stealing that idea -- although yours is certainly a superior-performing snubber, by far -- because I like to change snubbers often anyway, and I like to have several on board of different weights for different conditions, so it would not really be worth it to me to have to make up such complicated ones. Since I always belay the chain to a strong point, risk of breakage of the snubber due to chafe is not a matter of life and death. Other people will have different priorities.


Concerning slipping the anchor -- I wonder if everyone here has thought through what that will entail, in case the urgent need arises? I think it's a good idea to think it through ahead of time, in order not to end up like Evans' friend who was crushed by a cruise ship In my case it's reasonably straightforward -- the designer of my boat put the eye where the lashing for the bitter end of the chain is attached in an easily accessible spot high up in the chain locker where it can be reached even if there is a lot of chain piled up in the locker (thanks, Bill Dixon!). I am supposed to have a sharp, serrated knife there (note to self), and a winch handle. So in case a cruise ship is bearing down on me at anchor, I run forward, cut the lashing, pull up the chain with my hand, flip off the chain hook for my stopper strop, cut the snubber, then release the windlass clutch with the winch handle. Run to the helm and motor backwards until all the chain has run out. I don't need to operate the windlass or worry about whether the breaker is on, etc.

One thing to worry about is whether the chain will jam in the pipe as it runs out. I always flake my chain down with my foot as it comes in -- so that will help prevent jams -- an evenly flaked pile of chain will run out much better than a collapsed pyramidal heap. The other thing is probably to remember not to back down too fast as the chain is running out, however much you might want to with a cruise ship drifting down on you . If it runs out too fast, it will lash around and probably be at greater risk of jamming, which would be very bad in the hypothetical situation.


Anyone without an easily accessible, cuttable lashing for their chain's bitter end might think about relocating it.