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Old 23-07-2020, 11:41   #91
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Re: How much chain..really?

Has anyone with the Rope/Chain windlass gypsy actually used the rope retrieval when the bow is pitching 3-4 feet creating a bar tight rode? hard for me to believe it can be relied upon...? I always thought this was small power cruiser device...
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Old 23-07-2020, 11:47   #92
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Re: How much chain..really?

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Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
Has anyone with the Rope/Chain windlass gypsy actually used the rope retrieval when the bow is pitching 3-4 feet creating a bar tight rode? hard for me to believe it can be relied upon...? I always thought this was small power cruiser device...

I haven't done it while pitching that much, but I've done it with 1 - 2 feet of pitching from boat wakes and with a decent wind (25-ish kts) where I couldn't keep from having some tension at the transition due to shifty gusts pushing the bow around a bit. The rope doesn't slip at all in the gypsy for my setup, the only concern is getting the splice around the gypsy. If there's too much tension it'll slip on the splice, although if the splice were tapered better and a bit more flexible than mine, that would likely help. If it fails to pass the splice, just feed back out for a second and try again. Usually letting off the up button just before the splice reaches the gypsy lets it coast over slowly enough to feed through and grab the chain without slipping, then you resume lifting.
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Old 23-07-2020, 12:04   #93
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Re: How much chain..really?

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Originally Posted by rslifkin View Post
If you needed to extend the chain portion, you could shackle the extra chain on at the anchor end before dropping. Adding it before the rope portion would be a challenge. Needing to add another section of rope would be fairly uncommon, I'd think. If occasional anchoring in very deep water is expected, I'd carry as much chain as I want / need / can handle the weight of on the primary, and then just add rope behind that up to the limit of what fits in the locker (assuming the locker won't hold 1000 feet or anything too crazy).

For a secondary rode, I'd definitely want things shackled rather than spliced for the sake of flexibility. In that situation there's a much larger chance you'd want to use one piece of the rode for something, or might need to stick a 2nd and 3rd rodes together for more length, etc.

Exactly.


Adding a shackle on the last but one link then chopping off the rode is only a half cooked option as chain 10 does not allow shackle 12 inside a non-last link. And shackle 10 is sub optimal on chain 10.


Hence no good solutions - especially if working in haste, on a wet and pitching foredeck!


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Old 23-07-2020, 12:57   #94
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Re: How much chain..really?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
Has anyone with the Rope/Chain windlass gypsy actually used the rope retrieval when the bow is pitching 3-4 feet creating a bar tight rode? hard for me to believe it can be relied upon...? I always thought this was small power cruiser device...
The short answer would be no. Assuming by bar-tight we mean >10% WLL the windlass wouldn't pull it.

But I'm assuming the question is "how much tension will a combination gypsy hold on rope?" I've never seen data and it is a good question. There is no reason to believe it is full winch output, but it might be. I've never been in that position, since I don't deploy to rope portion often. As RSLIFKIN pointed out, you probably can't be under any significant tension when the back slice passes. With an irony splice, maybe.


The irony splice was innovated by the late Brian Toss.



http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/20...in-splice.html
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Old 23-07-2020, 14:10   #95
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Re: How much chain..really?

Well put Wingssail.."need to be prepared for the extreme, but rather than carry excessive and unneeded weight in the bow 3 year after year, just in case and be slow and suffer for all those days".
Looked at aft chain locker options on our Wauquiez Pretorien 35, but its difficult to see where one could be fitted. Pam Wall and husbands location can be seen at 25:27 in, via YouTube: "Kandarik Tour with Pam Wall & Andy Schell".
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Old 23-07-2020, 14:11   #96
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Re: How much chain..really?

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
We have anchored quite a lot and not many anchorages are deep AND coral.

If it is too deep, simply do not anchor there.

The chain rope will not be severed if there is no rope in it.

You can extend chain or rope by adding more chain or rope as required. Skip the splice part, place 10 shackle on 8 chain (12 on 10) and you are set. This is best done when you first rope extension has a thimble. We used plain nylon thimble (closed) and it never got crunched, not even deformed. Tying rope on an oversize shackle is an option too.

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Barnakiel, That (If it is too deep, simply do not anchor there.) is an over simplification.

If you carry a limited chain rode there will be times when it is going to be too deep for your chain. Yes, you should not, in that case, anchor there. But sometimes you may, due to your own foolishness, find yourself there and REALLY need to anchor.

I'll give you a real life example: Intending to anchor at Tapituan Island on the edge of the deep water (in the green on the chart) we arrived late in the day only to find that it was impossible. The shallow water was too close to shore and the shelf dropped off to 95ft. We would not have wanted to set out 100' of chain and a rope rode. The bottom was probably rock similar to the cliffs around the shoreline and we would have worried about cutting the rope. Leaving the area did not seem practical or safe at that hour considering the unfamiliar waters and charts we did not trust; we'd have been sailing after dark. But we had 300' of chain and so we could put it out.

My point is, it is an over simplification to say, "simply don't anchor there".

It's far better to carry enough chain to cover the situations you might encounter in the area where you intend to cruise.
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Old 23-07-2020, 15:39   #97
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Re: How much chain..really?

I can understand that one would like to keep the chain rode in two parts so as to store one part further aft and only replace one part at a time.

To the question on how to attach them: there are special couplers that maintain link to link distance. You can find these even at Lowe’s and Tractor Supply. The G70 version as I have here has a gold colored finish, which I spray with cold galvanize from CRC.
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Old 23-07-2020, 16:18   #98
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Re: How much chain..really?

6' should do it.
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Old 23-07-2020, 16:31   #99
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Re: How much chain..really?

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Originally Posted by NorthernMac View Post
You are correct sir.

Area of operations would be eastern US, Bahamas and possibly US west coast, with the Panama journey being involved if that occurred
The east US, Bahamas, and Caribbean is also our cruising ground and I can count the times we have put out 175+ feet on one hand the last 6 years. I think once or maybe twice we put out more than 200 feet. I think 200 feet is more than enough and you can always extend with a length of rope if needed.

On our Cabo Rico we have 320 feet of 3/8" chain and on our Manta we have 200 feet of 5/16". On either boat, we were just calculating that our average chain deployed is around 90 feet or less figuring that we usually anchor in 10 feet of water and its about 5 feet from the water to the bow... so 15x5= 75 feet then we attach the snubber.
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Old 24-07-2020, 06:49   #100
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Re: How much chain..really?

Northern MAC, seems you do not realize what chain is good for! the chain has more holding friction than the anchor.... so the more chain, the better holding, it works also shock absorbing in heavy seas and bad conditions... Deneema in the sea is not recomandable, it wears too easily- 80 meters for a cutter is the least, 100 would be normal
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Old 24-07-2020, 07:00   #101
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Re: How much chain..really?

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Northern MAC, seems you do not realize what chain is good for! the chain has more holding friction than the anchor.... so the more chain, the better holding, it works also shock absorbing in heavy seas and bad conditions... Deneema in the sea is not recomandable, it wears too easily- 80 meters for a cutter is the least, 100 would be normal
No, this has been disproven several times. Unless you're using unreasonably heavy chain or are in very deep water with 300+ feet of chain out, in heavy weather you'll pull the chain tight enough that it can't absorb any useful amount of energy. It won't be perfectly straight, but it'll be close enough that it's no longer helping. And chain definitely cannot generate any holding power in those conditions (when you need the most holding power), as it'll be lifted clear of the bottom.
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Old 24-07-2020, 07:20   #102
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Re: How much chain..really?

When I bought the Roberts, it had about 8 feet of 5/16" chain and about 40 feet of 5/8" three strand nylon. No-name Danforth type anchor, about 20lbs. This, for a 44'+ boat. Obvious upgrade opportunity. Bought a big Rocna and a barrel of 3/8" galvanized. That's 400' and I could only get about 320' in the chain locker so that's what I got. I don't anticipate ever needing it all, but I got it if I do. The leftover will be stowed in the lazarette along with a spare anchor and some nylon rode. I don't feel that it was an extravagant purchase and the boat carries it well. I don't anticipate ever venturing further than GOM, Caribbean, or SE US Atlantic coast. I would hope that I never have occasion to anchor for a hurricane. I do see the possibility of anchoring well offshore for a bit of snapper fishing, though. Of course I have a windlass, and a spare. <note to myself: install windlass!>
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Old 24-07-2020, 07:39   #103
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Re: How much chain..really?

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
Like I wrote, for your plans 100’ is enough. When you anchor in 75’ of water you need 400’ of chain. For world cruisers I consider rope a risk and nuisance better avoided. I’m sure people will take 100’ of chain plus 300’ rope but I know it’s a pain and often leads to trouble as well. All chain is the way to go
I agree. Having anchored many times in water deeper than 75', I'm glad to have had 300' of chain on my primary anchor. As has been stated, a lighter boat in shallower water doesn't need as much; not really a mystery. It's a matter of safety.
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Old 24-07-2020, 07:41   #104
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Re: How much chain..really?

I have cruised up and down the east coast of the US, the Bahamas and pretty much every island in the eastern Caribbean. 125 ft. of chain was all we ever needed. I had 100 ft. more of rope rode after that but never once used it.

In the Pacific things are a bit deeper ....
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Old 24-07-2020, 07:48   #105
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Re: How much chain..really?

Interestingly, from a physics, and holding power point of view. What makes chain work is the weight causing a catenary curve so as to give you a shallow angle of pull.

Physics shows that about 77 feet of chain is all you need to get full effect of the catenary, regardless of depth. You also get a lot of chafe protection as this is also the part on the bottom. This is perhaps more important to multi’s Being more weight conscious.
However! I will always opt on my mono for at least 200 feet of chain. One of the problems that concerns me in so many third world type anchorages is that power boats seem to have little problem with passing quite close to an anchored vessel. I know of a number that have had their anchor rode cut or badly damaged by this. And there is the outside chance of chafe on bottom obstructions even with the 77 feet on chain.
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